Evidence for God

I am sorry but you are the one who has to prove that they did not have more than one wife. You are trying to disprove the validity of the story based on the numbers of first born children. Your problems go away if you assume that the Jews had many wives, and the first born child is only the first born from the single father. Not every women would have a first born child. Also, if you did analyze the beginning part of exodus which I already pointed you to, you would see that the pharaoh was very worried about the multiplying of the Jewish people. This indicates that the Jews had a very high birth rate to say the least. Also, it seems logical that there were more women than men since the pharaoh had decreed that all boys be tossed into the river, and the daughters should be let live. Who did all of these daughters marry? Also, in case you think that the names given in the Torah are a full description of all of the Jewish births, why are almost no daughters mentioned. One question, who did the 12 sons of Jacob actually marry? It is obvious that many names are left out of the text. This is because, as I have already mentioned, the Torah is not a story book. Everything that is mentioned in the Torah has a purpose.Your response continues to show how you are arguing a point solely for the sake of arguing. What if I told you: "If your car breaks you should buy a new one." You would say that this is proof that the person that I am talking to does not have a car at this point. This is not logical. Similarly, it states in the verse what the law is when a person has two wives and he dislikes one of them and loves the other and has a first born son with the disliked one. You then said that this shows that the Jewish people did not have two wives at that time. This is not a logical conclusion, and you are giving it purely for the sake of the argument. Please give me your source for this. I am afraid that you are the one who needs more study of the Torah. Also, please give me some of your places in the Torah where you think words were added that made the text not flow properly. Realize, that a heretic will always find problems with a religion. The Jewish oral tradition that was written down over 1500 years ago has already given answers to all of your questions. Bible critics are relatively new comers to these questions that have been discussed by Jewish scholars for thousands of years. Among Jews it is considered praiseworthy to be able to discover good questions in the Torah in order to shed some light on the interpretation of the word of G-d. Therefore, the Torah has been scrutinized more closely by Jewish rabbis than by any bible critic. Almost every valid question that you can come up with has already been discussed by a Jewish rabbi that lived about 1000 years ago. Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.

If you are seriously asking for an opinion on this logic, I will point out your flaw. There are actually two flaws in this logical argument. First of all, your second step is not backed up by logic or the first premise. You simply state that there is no evidence. What you really mean to say is that you have not found any evidence yet. The second problem with your logic is that you are missing a link from step 2 to step 3. You state that there is no evidence of a cause and then you start the next step by stating that there is no cause. A lack of evidence does not logically prove anythings nonexistence. Also, you mention the idea of an ever contracting and expanding universe. This idea has been thought of for years, and it is not widely accepted in the scientific community, namely because space seems to be expanding outward at an "increased" velocity. This implies that there is no known force that is capable of creating any contraction, and that there is a force that is still causing the expansion. Furthermore, even if such a contraction could theoretically take place, the following Big Bang would have less energy than the previous one. You have to think of what force would be strong enough to cause the expansion after such a strong contraction takes place. Also, I might add that there are problems with the idea of an infinite universe. If time is completely infinite, it is not possible for us to have moved through it at all.

Actually, what I was saying is that every religion gives testimony that there book was actually written by who they say wrote it. They all testify about their prophets, and this is proof that their prophets actually did exist. Do you believe that a man named Jesus actually did live on this earth? I believe that such a man existed and actually taught some sort of religion. I just do not believe that he actually spoke to G-d, let alone actually be some sort of son of a god himself. This is because even if you follow the story all the way back, nobody actually verified that he spoke to G-d. If you follow the testimony of every religion about each ones origin, you can still discount every other religion. Judaism is hard to discount if you would admit that Moses actually wrote the Torah and presented it to the Jewish people. This is because it says in the Torah that Moses informed the Jews that they had heard the voice of G-d themselves. If Moses was lying, it would have been verifiable by everyone who accepted the Torah. In the case of every other religion, the story of the founder is not verifiable. If Jesus said that he spoke to G-d, nobody can prove him wrong. But, Moses would have been proven wrong if it was not true that 600,000 people heard the voice of G-d. This is why everyone that argues against the Torah must claim that the Torah was not even written by Moses. The alternative would be a conspiracy involving over 1,000,000 people. I think the Jews that are around today are giving testimony about the author of the book the same way that any other religious followers gives testimony to the author of their books. I hope this makes my point a little clearer.Just to clarify, I have already answered the question at the beginning of this thread with my first post in this thread. I believe that there is sufficient proof to show that there must be only one G-d. The debate between Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, is about what G-d actually said (Christianity may actually not be monotheistic depending on who you ask). For this you cannot find any evidence outside of the Torah itself.According to Jewish tradition, the giving of the Torah was around 1200 BCE, and this is not a generous estimate. If you consider the whole Torah to be accurate, the story line goes back to 3760 BCE. Also, as you are well aware, Hinduism has been changing over time and it is not the Vedic religion. Judaism has not changed with regard to any of its fundamental laws and beliefs. Many traditions have been discontinued since the destruction of the temple, but the commandments are exactly that same as they were 3200 years ago. You do not have enough evidence to know these things so you are assuming that it did not happen. Furthermore, heretics always existed especially in the Jewish nation. Have you even read from the Tanach. There were many Jews that were serving idols. This is because there were many sinners even back then, this does not show that Judaism was any different years ago. Even today, there are reform and conservative Jews that are not practicing the religion the way that it is suppose to be practiced. These are not religious Jews, but they are heretics as well. I hope this helps you understand my points a little more clearly.

I have already told you that although you can technically think of many possibilities, the evidence does point to an infinite expansion. Also, I do not quite understand how you think the Big Crunch will lead into another Big Bang. If anything, the force of the contraction will cause the entire Universe to turn into a singularity and keep it that way. You also mention about an emotionally appealing scenario. I am sorry to say that the humans a doomed no matter how you slice it. We will survive until the Sun finally dies. At that point the Universe is gone from our species perspective. You may believe that life exists on other planets far away from our galaxy; however, this has no implication for human life.The idea that time is infinite makes little sense. This is because it is not possible to move through anything that is infinite by definition. If time will go on forever, you will never be able to say that you have reached the end of time. However, in order to reach a point in time it is necessary to move through all of the previous points in time. It is not possible to just appear in any moment in time that you see fit. Therefore, by the very fact that we are existing in this point in time indicates that we have already past through all of the previous points in time. Since you are considering to time be extending infinitely in both the past and the future, you are necessarily stating that the Universe has moved through an infinite amount of time. This is not possible. I have already explained what is wrong with your logical flow from 1 to 4.

This idea of not being able to move through an infinite amount of time is not meant to break the flow of your arguments. The flow of your arguments was already broken by my first response. I am merely pointing out a problem with an infinite amount of time. I will give you the classic response to all of these kinds of questions (you seem to be stuck on these questions). You want to know why G-d does not punish evil with lightning, and reward good with money and paradise. The easy answer is that G-d created humans to have free will. He does not wish to have robots or puppets. This would not serve G-d's plan. In order to give free will, a human must not have direct knowledge of G-d's existence. If humans did have such knowledge, they would lose their free will. If I put a gun to your head and force you to give me all your money, how much free will do you have? With the choice between your money or your life, I don't think you have much of a choice (this is of course assuming that I know how to use the gun and that your death would be a given if you decide not to hand over the money). The same would apply with this Universe that G-d created. He wants humans to have free will to do good or evil. In this manner, humans will be able to be rewarded for the good that they do with their free will (notice I did not indicate any punishment). If G-d would be showing His mighty hand in His creation, the humans would have no choice but to follow all of the commandments. Since the humans are acting out of fear, and not out of free will, it is not fitting that they should deserve a reward for their actions. This is why G-d hides His presence in this world. I think this is very logical to anyone with an open mind.Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.

I understand that you do not believe that the evidence supports the claims in the Torah. But this has nothing to do with your claim. You are claiming that the Torah itself is contradictory, and you bring the amount of firstborn children as a proof of this. I am showing you that this is no proof of the Torah contradicting itself. If you want to prove that the Torah is contradicting itself you would have to bring a source that proves that all Jews did not have more than one wife. Historical evidence is moot in this debate so please do not bring it up any further. I am sorry but please read what you wrote here. Here is what you said in message 195: I was merely pointing out the flaws in this logical argument. You have contradicted a previous post of your own.Now let me discuss your evidence from the scriptures that seem to imply one wife. First of all, are you reading a Hebrew text or a Christian translation? This is a very important question because you are trying to show how the Torah does not make logical sense. If you do not actually speak the language that the Torah was written in, I need not say that you are wasting your time. So I assume you do speak at least some basic Hebrew, and you are reading from the actual texts and not translations. First of all, do you know what this verse means? I will give you some background. G-d had just created Eve, and now Adam had a partner in the creation like all of the other animals. Adam said that he will call this one a women because it was taken from man. The verse goes on to say: Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and cling to his wife and they shall become one flesh. What is meant by this? According to the Jewish tradition, this means that a man and women become one flesh when they get married. The one flesh is referring to the child that is born afterwards. Honestly speaking, G-d had just created one man and one woman; would you expect the verse to go on and say therefore a man should cling to his wives and become one flesh. This does not even make any sense. How are you getting one child from many different wives combined? You are bringing a source where it would make no sense for the word wives to be used. As you will see, I will show you that all of you other sources are exactly the same kind of error on your part. You can't interpret something from the choosing of the word wife if the word wives would not fit in at all. In this one your error is obvious. Along your lines of reasoning, the verse implies that all of the Jews had or should have one house, one wife, one manservant, one maidservant, one ox, one donkey, and one neighbor for that matter. You can clearly see that this verse does not imply anything about the quantity of the objects described. Furthermore, if it did say wives, you would think that I am not allowed to covet all of his wives, but you are allowed to covet one of them. You see from here how the verse is actually very carefully written. By the way, I assume you meant Exodus Chapter 20 verse "14." I also want to inform you that the word neighbor does not appear in the verse and it is better translated as friend, fellow, or colleague. Like many other verses, you have no idea what this verse is even trying to say. Why the repetition? Do you know? I do know, and the Jewish tradition has discussed this verse in detail. But this is a side point. Again the word neighbor is not the translation at all, and the verse does seem to imply that you have only one neighbor if you read it like you want it to be read. Also it is not translated as "the wife of his fellow," but rather "his fellow's wife." When you emphasize the word "the" as if the verse is trying to stress one wife, you have to realize that the word "the" does not appear in the text, and the true translation is actually what I have written. The emphasis in this verse is on the word "fellow" not on the word "the". With this one I will just give you the real translation and let you chew it over. "Any man whose wife shall go astray and commit treachery against him." This a translation given in a Jewish translation, but even it is not exactly what is written in the text. You must see the actual text for this one. According to the actual translation, there is no need to write the word "wive" and it would actually be misleading in this context. The women that commits treachery is a wife, and that is why she has done wrong. And finally: Please, your argument does not even start over here. Any wife is a good thing, even one. If it said wives you would say that only wives are good, but one wife is not sufficient. When analyzing the texts in the future, try to think of how the meaning of the verse would change if your words were added and the actual words were edited. Usually you will easily see the problem with your words. Thank you for not posting anymore as it would have just wasted both my time and your time. I have explained to you the method of analyzing the texts that would lead to something of substance. The verse that I have given you clearly gives an example of more than one wife. If your interpretation of the verses make the verses look silly, it is your interpretation that needs to be adjusted. Those people actually do not know what they are talking about either. They know just as much as you, and that is very little. An atheist will never be able to give an objective interpretation of a book that he considers to be a fairy tale. Any degree from such people is completely worthless. I am sorry that you had to waste time obtaining useless degrees but time spent does not make them any more worthless.Regarding your problems with the book of Judges, I think that for now it is better to stick to the actual Torah and not start debating the books of the Prophets. If you have any problems with the actual Torah than I would want you to give those first because this is the actual debated topic. I can't stress it enough that you ignore anything that the Christians have to say about the Torah. They obviously do not practice anything that is written in the Torah, and they have persecuted Jewish people for many years. Frankly, it is the Christian morons that have been causing the atheism that exists in this world. Christians do not have much of a tradition and it is obvious that each priest has his own interpretation of the entire Bible. You cannot group all religions into one basket, because you have to remember that only one of them is actually correct. The rest are actually complete garbage, and they will create a bad name for G-d.Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.