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Author Topic:   Is a literal reading of the Bible an insult to its authors?
anglagard
Member (Idle past 866 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 169 of 187 (478296)
08-13-2008 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by jaywill
08-13-2008 6:28 PM


Cheap Grace Reading
jaywill writes:
Disbelief of the Bible comes in all shapes and sizes. In your case your escape hatch into disbelief is always "literary genre".
Disrespect of the Bible comes in all shapes and sizes. In your case your escape hatch into disrespect is always "cheap grace." Under the concept of cheap grace, it is you who claims to share infallibility with God, therefore your interpretations are also infallible and not allowed to be questioned.
Apparently, a little more educated sounding or sophisticated than some cruder rejections. But a rejection of God's word just the same.
I would argue it is you who rejects the true meaning of the Bible by forcing it to be read as a newspaper report under all circumstances, thereby opening it up to endless contradictions both within itself and with the reality your god supposedly created. Then the Bible becomes a tool to support any and all preconceived human motivations, such as Right Wing Authoritarianism.
In fact according to this work, the combination of cheap grace and right wing authoritarianism has led to 42% of all evangelicals professing to be above all laws, be they from God or man, as they are already 'saved.' Only a strict literalist could turn a book about morals into a doctrine of amorality.
quote:
The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.
William Shakespeare
I read your attempts to still salvage some grand artistic importance from what you read as perhaps just a way to bribe your conscience by getting something else, just not God's speaking.
As the self-proclaimed co-equal authority that claims to speak for God you obviously seek to pass judgment in his absence. What was that first commandment and how did you manage to read the opposite?

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by jaywill, posted 08-13-2008 6:28 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by jaywill, posted 08-14-2008 2:58 PM anglagard has not replied
 Message 173 by jaywill, posted 08-14-2008 4:26 PM anglagard has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 866 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 174 of 187 (478511)
08-16-2008 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by jaywill
08-14-2008 4:26 PM


Re: Cheap Grace Reading
jaywill writes:
Anglagard,
Catholic Scientist did a good attempt of answering on your behalf.
Are you going to just go along with what CS wrote or do you have your own ideas of where I displayed "cheap grace"?
If so, please show me.
CS has an excellent grasp on what I meant, unfortunately I have reasons to doubt you ever will.
As an example see Message 117 where you wrote:
quote:
On a case by case basis we should ascertain what is the true nature of the lesson, teaching, parable, example, or allegory Jesus was using
Now when archer does that you respond Message 168:
quote:
Disbelief of the Bible comes in all shapes and sizes. In your case your escape hatch into disbelief is always "literary genre".
Apparently, a little more educated sounding or sophisticated than some cruder rejections. But a rejection of God's word just the same.
I read your attempts to still salvage some grand artistic importance from what you read as perhaps just a way to bribe your conscience by getting something else, just not God's speaking.
It is "cheap grace" to insist your statement above only applies to your interpretation and no one else's. Apparently you believe that a difference with any of your interpretations is a rejection of "God's word just the same."
Did you die on a cross 2000 years ago? Were you the one resurrected? If not then how do you justify the claim that your interpretation is infallible and all others are "godless"? To me it seems unearned.
Did it ever occur to you that the Bible may have been written for everyone and not just you and the people who agree with you?

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by jaywill, posted 08-14-2008 4:26 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by jaywill, posted 08-18-2008 8:29 AM anglagard has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 866 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 175 of 187 (478512)
08-16-2008 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by jaywill
08-14-2008 4:04 PM


Re: Cheap Grace Reading
jaywill writes:
I believe the incarnation and resurrection of Jesus is truth and fact. If that makes me an arbiter I'll just have to be an arbiter.
I have my reasons. I think they are better reasons for belief than the poster's grandstanding that the Gospels are fiction.
Can you show me where archer said the gospels were fiction? Are you sure you did not somehow read into his posts that because parts of the gospels may not be flawless newspaper reporting that he was insisting that the entirety of its contents were false or not based on actual events?
Edited by anglagard, : improved wording

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by jaywill, posted 08-14-2008 4:04 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by jaywill, posted 08-17-2008 7:04 AM anglagard has not replied
 Message 178 by jaywill, posted 08-17-2008 8:03 AM anglagard has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 866 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 176 of 187 (478514)
08-16-2008 2:36 PM


What is jaywill's Position Anyway?
jaywill,
I am having some trouble figuring out exactly what your position is regarding any infallibility of the Bible.
Message 120 you wrote:
quote:
There is a track record established in its contents which leads to the belief the(sic) is adequately infallible
Which of the many versions of the Bible are you referring to as being adequately infallible? Which is the most and least infallible? And what do you mean by "adequately?"
Message 127 you wrote:
quote:
I already indicated that copyist errors are in the Bible
Is that what you mean by "adequately?" Infallible except for the copyist errors?
Message 92 you wrote:
quote:
But in the end it comes back to faith in the pure word of the Bible. That is all of it and not selectively only those passages which we favor.
Do you mean the pure word before or after the copyist errors are taken into account? And once again which version of the Bible is the "pure word?" I have four versions in my house and around 20 where I work.
Also, when you state all of the Bible, does that include all of those laws in Leviticus? Are we commanded to go to the gravel pit, pick up a truckload of rocks, and stone all those Saturday (or is it Sunday?) Wal-Mart shoppers to death?
Message 125 you wrote:
quote:
Believing in Christ is a matter of humbling ourselves. We should not be to (sic) wise in our own eyes. We should be as trusting as children when it comes to the claims of Jesus Christ.
Considering the way you attack anyone as "godless" who does not toe the line to your somewhat confusing stance on Biblical infallibility, do you actually believe this or did you write it because it makes you look good to yourself?

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 866 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 186 of 187 (478634)
08-18-2008 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by jaywill
08-18-2008 8:29 AM


Re: Cheap Grace Reading
jaywill writes:
First concerning "godless". If you are sensative that people would insinuate that you are godless then you might be careful about despitefully using the phrase "your god" as you did on me.
You must realize that I am not talking about my private God but the one God. So if you want to sling around contemptuous phrases saying "your god" did this and "your god" did that and "I'm bothered by your god for thus and such", then don't be upset if you get a reation that implies that you are godless.
There is only one God, not my private custom made one in the contemptuous sense that you wrote.
Now about me dying on the cross 2,000 years ago.
When it appears that what one calls "god" is simply a projection of oneself and argues that they speak for this "god" by implying their interpretation of this "god" is infallible, then this so-called "god" is clearly false and deserving of contempt.
However, if one accidentally gives the impression that they are infallible through a poor choice of words and apologizes for their mistake, however grudgingly, then there is some hope that that person may actually be attempting to understand the real God.
Hopefully in the future, such a person will be more careful when posting and learn some actual tolerance for different viewpoints developed through honest study and examination of the Bible, just as they claim to have for different racial and ethnic backgrounds. God did not make the universe just so one mortal could look down their nose at everyone else.
Only then will you have the humility to do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by jaywill, posted 08-18-2008 8:29 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by jaywill, posted 08-18-2008 11:04 PM anglagard has not replied

  
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