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Author Topic:   Is a literal reading of the Bible an insult to its authors?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 187 (476422)
07-23-2008 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by ICANT
07-21-2008 9:36 PM


Re: Re Nineveh
Brian writes:
but taking it as allegory certainly solves a lot of problems.
It creates a much larger problem than it fixes.
To call it an allegory is to call Jesus a liar.
I don't think so. At least, it desn't necessarily call Jesus a liar.
quote:
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Jesus could just have easily been referring to the Jonas story while knowing that it was an allegory.
For example, if Jesus had said something like: Just like Tom Sawyer whitewashed the fence, so shall the Son of man paint the temple white.... Or something like that, he wouldn't necessarily be saying that Tom Sawyer was a real person who really whitewashed a fence. Just because he referenced the story, doesn't mean that he is saying that the story is literally true.
Make sense?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ICANT, posted 07-21-2008 9:36 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by ICANT, posted 07-23-2008 5:41 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 187 (476428)
07-23-2008 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by ICANT
07-23-2008 5:41 PM


Re: Re Nineveh
Catholic Scientist writes:
Jesus could just have easily been referring to the Jonas story while knowing that it was an allegory.
Well if he was referring to an event that never happened as an allegory.
Would that not mean that He was referring to something He was going to do but it would be nothing just like the fish story.
No, not at all. He was referring to something that he was going to do, and it was like the fish story in that it took 3 days. Him referencing it doesn't mean that he was saying that it really did happen, and him knowing that it really didn't happen doesn't mean that he is saying that what he is going to do isn't really going to happen either. That's rally a stretch.
He could have been saying the same thing with "Just like Superman hid in his ice cave for 3 days, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
That doesn't mean that the reference to Superman is saying that Superman really does exist. Its just a reference.
Either the fish story was an actual fact that Jesus was referring to or He was lying when He said He was going to be in the heart of the earth 72 hrs like Jonas and then come forth from the grave.
But that is not true, as I've just explained. He could have reference the fish story all the while knowing it didn't really happen and still not be lying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by ICANT, posted 07-23-2008 5:41 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by ICANT, posted 07-23-2008 10:19 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 187 (476501)
07-24-2008 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by ICANT
07-23-2008 10:19 PM


Since you are in the explaining business please explain to me why Jesus would use a lie to portray what he was going to do.
It wasn't a lie. Do you consider the other parables that Jesus used to be lies as well?
Why did He have to use a reference?
He didn't have to, but he used references all the time so why not this time too?
Why use the fish story if it was false?
It wasn't "false", it was just a story. You wouldn't say that "Jack and Jill went up the hill" is false. Its just a story.
The Son of man shall be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Instead of:
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
There would be no confusion and as far as He was concerned it would not make any difference.
Jesus' parables suggest that he wasn't interested in avoiding confusion. A lot of his teachings were parables that didn't necessarily really happen. That doens't make them "false" and it doesn't make him a liar.
If one was a lie they both were a lie.
That would make Jesus a liar.
Again, that is just not true.
Had Jesus said: "Just as Jack and Jill went up the hill, I too will rise up to heaven"....
He wouldn't have been lying. He was just referencing a common story that people were aware of. That doesn't mean the story had to actually have happened.
But you are avoiding this point. You keep repeating your original assertion in the face of refutation. Is this going to be the same as usual where you can't admit that you were wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by ICANT, posted 07-23-2008 10:19 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by ICANT, posted 07-24-2008 8:34 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 187 (476608)
07-25-2008 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by ICANT
07-24-2008 8:34 PM


Re: Re-Story
Did Jack and Jill physically go up a hill? No
Did Jesus physically rise up to heaven? Yes.
So it would be a lie to say: "Just as Jack and Jill went up the hill, I too will rise up to heaven".
It would not be a lie. In the story, Jack and Jill did physically go up the hill. The reference to it as a story isn't saying that it really did happen somewhere.
The only way it could be like what Jack and Jill did would be if He never did it physicaly.
No, he phyically went up to heaven just like Jack and Jill physically went up the hill. That they are fictional characters doesn't mean that it is a lie to refer to their fictional physical "going up the hill". In the story, they really did go up the hill.
Is that what you are saying happened?
No, I'm saying that Jesus referencing the fictional story of Jonas is not Jesus saying that the story actually happened in reality. The point of the reference was that, in the fictional story, Jonas was in the belly for 3 days just like Jesus was going to be dead for 3 days. That the story of Jonas was fictional doesn't make this reference any less veracious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ICANT, posted 07-24-2008 8:34 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2008 9:53 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 187 (476615)
07-25-2008 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by ICANT
07-25-2008 9:53 AM


Re: Re-Story
Your idea of what is true and what is a lie is a lot different than mine.
There is truth.
Anything that is not truth is a lie.
That is utterly ridiculous.
Pie is better than cake. Truth or lie? Well, its neither... it is an opinion.
If it is so plain and simple to you why did the disciples and especially the apostles not understand what Jesus said?
To what are you refering?
If a child asked me if there was a Santa Clause and I said yes would I be telling a lie?
Yes. However, if you said: "Just like Santa Claus's suit is red, so is this firetruck red." then you would not be lying because the fictional character Santa Claus does have a red suit. That you refered to Santa Claus is not saying that Santa Claus actually does exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2008 9:53 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2008 11:52 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 187 (476632)
07-25-2008 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by ICANT
07-25-2008 11:52 AM


Re: Re-Story
If there is no Santa Clause, HOW CAN HE HAVE A RED SUIT?
He has a red suit IN THE STORY.
If you reference Santa Claus (as a fictional character) you are not saying that he really did exist in reality. But IN THE STORY, he does have a red suit.
True or Flase: Sherlock Holmes smoked a pipe?
It is true. But Sherlock was never a real person. Him being a fictional character doesn't mean that it isn't true that he, as a fictional character, smoked a pipe.
Only in your mind.
Something that does not exist can not have anything.
But Santa Claus, as a fictional character outside of my mind, does exist. He just doesn't exist in real life.
The same thing goes for Jonas and Jesus' reference to him. Jesus wasn't saying that Jonas was a person in real life anymore than I am saying that Sherlock was real when I say that he smoked a pipe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2008 11:52 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2008 12:51 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 187 (476654)
07-25-2008 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ICANT
07-25-2008 12:51 PM


Re: Re-Story
So if he is not real, does not exist in real life, he can only exist in a person's mind or the portrayal of a person's mind in picture or words.
You mean like all the parables that Jesus used to express his teachings?
Santa can't have a red suit.
Holmes can't smoke a pipe.
Neither exist in real life.
Only in the mind or the expressions of the mind of someone can either exist.
That is called fantasy.
Sure, and when you refer to those fantasies via an analogy, like the way that Jesus referred to Jonas, you are not saying that those fantasies actually occured in real life.
If I told you that my pen is the same color as Santa's suit, you could easily guess the color of my pen. That doesn't mean that we are saying that Santa is real.
Likewise, Jesus' reference to Jonas was not necessarily saying that Jonas actually existed. Now, he very well could have meant that Jonas really did exist, but it doesn't have to mean that. Saying that the story of Jonas didn't actually happen does not make Jesus a liar when he referenced that story.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2008 12:51 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2008 2:54 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 187 (476673)
07-25-2008 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by ICANT
07-25-2008 2:54 PM


Re: Re-Story
I never refer to a fantasy when I am presenting a Biblical truth to my congregation.
I got 10 year olds that call me out for doing that.
The proverbial "you", ICANT
Jesus was stating a fact and He would not have tried to prop it up with a lie.
I've already explained why this wasn't necessarily a lie.
But once again you're just going to repeat your same old refuted arguments until the cows come home because of your inability to admit when you are wrong. So, good day, sir.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2008 2:54 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2008 3:26 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 187 (476684)
07-25-2008 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by ICANT
07-25-2008 3:26 PM


Re: Re-Story
What makes your view better than mine?
Because mine is based on a rational and logical argument and your's is not.
You don't believe what I tell you so why should I believe what you say?
Because you shouldn't base your beliefs on your inability to admit that you were wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by ICANT, posted 07-25-2008 3:26 PM ICANT has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 187 (478362)
08-14-2008 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by jaywill
08-14-2008 2:58 PM


Re: Cheap Grace Reading
As I understand the expression "cheap grace" please quote me where I refered to a concept of "cheap grace".
You didn't refer to it explicity, but right here:
quote:
Apparently, a little more educated sounding or sophisticated than some cruder rejections. But a rejection of God's word just the same.
You have made youself the arbiter on what is and is not God's word.
So like anglagard said:
quote:
Under the concept of cheap grace, it is you who claims to share infallibility with God, therefore your interpretations are also infallible and not allowed to be questioned.
I do not force it to read as a newspaper under all circumstances. However even a newspaper may have some poetry in it. I recognize that Job is poetry and that Psalms and Proverbs are like poetry.
You're not a literalist nor an inerrantist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by jaywill, posted 08-14-2008 2:58 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by jaywill, posted 08-14-2008 4:04 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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