Did Jesus Lie?

Regardless of what ICANT wrote in another thread, his answer is correct if you read the passage. The verse implies that if one is unable to accomplish the task as the disciples were unable to, then the person doesn't have enough faith. IOW, no matter how much faith one claims or feels they have, the proof is in the actions. If they can't do it, then they don't have faith the size of a mustard seed.Sorta like when we say that something is so easy that a child or monkey can do it. Implying that those who can't do the task aren't very smart or capable, etc. It doesn't really mean that a monkey or child could actually do the task.Supposedly the consensus position is that the author of Matthew was not the apostle who knew Jesus. Early Christian Writings
Given that and the possibility that the Book of Matthew was written as a satire, the statement is probably pointing at the religious practice of blaming an individual's lack of faith for what goes wrong or doesn't work.

Although it is said that faith can move mountains, experience shows that dynamite works better.

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Methinks that the Bible is in severe need of a revamping so that the bullshit that the actual verses presents can not be taken at the face value that seems to be the way they have been passed down through the centuries.

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Actually people need "revamping". We need to read it the same way we read other literature and understand that ancient people were also creative in getting their point across and appealing to the emotions of the audience.Notice that the author of Mark gave the tale of the withered fig tree which then turned into a mountain analogy dealing with doubt. The author of Matthew, who supposedly pulled his material from Mark wrote about the mustard seed faith in chapter 17, but later in chapter 21 he gives his version of the withered fig issue which also brings up mountain tossing. The disciples are starting to look like a foil for this author. Notice the withered fig story also has an out. If you do not doubt... So again, if the mountain doesn't move, the person has doubt. If things don't work right it is the individual's fault. Either doubt or lack of faith, whichever way we want to look at it.This brings up the question that if the disciples were so inept at remembering their leader's words, why believe that this author presented Jesus' words verbatim?

For an author it makes perfect sense.If someone literally tries to move a mountain or curse a fig tree and it doesn't work, then it's their fault, not that anything written is wrong. Keeps the mystery alive.It's easier to understand if you look at the passage in Mark which I quoted in Message 21. IMO, the author of Mark has applied the concept of positive thinking.If Matthew was written as a satire, then the author was exaggerating that portion of Mark. We know that positive thinking can only take us so far.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Jesus was only talking with his disciples, per the story.It is meaningless in regards to literally moving mountains and trees. If you notice, the author doesn't have Jesus demonstrate those extreme actions. Even the author didn't want to go that far.It isn't necessarily meaningless in regards to the overall story.As far as I know, we can't move mountains or trees with a word; unless of course it's on a work order.

You're demanding that ICANT explain himself in regards to the rules you have created. Message 1You claim to know how much faith or doubt ICANT has personally. You don't know actually know how much faith it takes to be the size of a mustard seed. That's the beauty of the verse. If the deed cannot be done, then the person doesn't have enough faith or has doubt that the action will happen depending on which story you read.Nothing in the story says that combining the faith of several people will do the trick.Per the story, if ICANT is unable to move a mountain, grow a limb, or move a tree; then he either has doubt that the action will happen as the author of Mark stated or he doesn't have faith the size of a mustard seed as the author of Matthew stated. I don't feel that anyone has enough faith to literally move a mountain. IMO, the doubt will always be there.There is no squirming. If one takes the passage literally, then the lack of accomplishment means doubt or lack of faith no matter what the individual says. If one takes the passage metaphorically, then we aren't dealing with moving trees or mountains anyway. Demanding explanations from ICANT is useless. If one takes the story literally, the disciples didn't even have enough faith and they were with Jesus. Why would you assume that Christians today would have more faith than the disciples who were with Jesus? They may not even have faith in the right thing for all you know.It's like demanding the truth from someone who has already told you the truth.

I think this has been mentioned before in other threads, but I think the idea of Jesus as more than just a man was a later development.Not sure if we'll truly know why. It was a very different time. Why it continues depends on the needs of the person, IMO.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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NO.I used the words that ICANT presented in another thread to show that his statement saying he DOES NOT DOUBT all those things means that he has faith.
The common meaning to the mustard seed analogy that I have heard,in my experience with christians, is that it means just a little faith. This is in keeping with the example of the disciples and the demons .

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No, it just means he doesn't doubt those things. Yes, that is what the verse is implying, but do you understand what the faith is supposed to be in?The list you presented in Message 11 of what ICANT doesn't doubt has nothing to do with this verse.When people have difficulty doing something and someone tells them to have a little faith, do you really think they are talking about any of the things on ICANT's list?Look at Mark 11 (Complete Jewish Bible): IOW, you cannot doubt what you say will happen. The catch is that God has to give you that kind of trust. Again, if one is unable to perform the attempted feat, then God hasn't given them that kind of trust.If you look at the two verses in Matthew, we see that that author plays both sides of the fence. In Matthew 17 all you need is a tiny bit of faith, but in Matthew 21 you're not allowed any doubt.So when it comes to regrowing a limb, you gotta believe it will happen with no doubt that it will happen. Yes dear, that is why we can usually assume there is a bit of doubt for those types of things. The mountain is an exaggeration. In reality, think of the implications of throwing a mountain into the sea.

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Let us get to the crux of things even deeper. Why demons as an example when, in fact, demons do not exist? Why not a concrete example relating to the disciples actual lives?

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You're asking the wrong person since I feel that Matthew is written as a satire.If you notice the authors of Mark and Luke don't use demons in that analogy because they had already had Jesus give the disciples authority to cast out demons.

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And you claim not to be wiggling? It is Christians that make the claims for magic and supernatural and faith and the one true god yet when pressed on the issue that they are adamant about they crumple and claim things are actually metaphorical. When the difficulty presents itself they "wiggle" and to say otherwise is to blatantly excuse themselves of claiming miracles and such on one hand and mere philosophical pandering on the other.

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It doesn't matter which way you take the verse. The author has provided the loop hole or wiggle room if you wish. If the feat cannot be done, then the person does not have enough faith or has doubt. That way what the author says cannot be deemed false.Authors usually have a reason for writing what they do. Whether to inform, entertain, inspire, etc. Even within a writing, the characters have a reason for what they say.If you look at the situation presented in the story, Jesus was trying to encourage his disciples. When a coach gives his team a pep talk does a good coach tell his team they have no chance of winning?The problem I have with your statements is that you seem to be saying Christians can do the feats according to the verse, but refuse to do so and are bashing them for not using their powers. You seem to be holding them to a standard you've created.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz