Instead of just making unsubstantiated rebuttals, explain your reasoning on why you believe as you do.
The Suffering Servant mentioned in Isaiah has wrongfully been identified by certain Christians (not all as some Bible”s e.g. RSV recognises the servant as the nation of Israel) with an individual person, namely Jesus.
But, on closer inspection, we can see that Isaiah’s Suffering Servant is not an individual at all, but the personification of a remnant of Israel.
**In Judaism, Isaiah 53 is NOT viewed as a messianic prophecy.**
To understand the context of Isaiah 53 it should be noted that this is only a small part of one of four servant songs that can be found in Isaiah.
The four songs can be found in Isaiah 42:1-4, Isaiah 49:1-6, Isaiah 50:4-9, and Isaiah 52:13-53:12.
So, it would be a good idea to read the entire song to understand the context of the partial quote.
Servant Song 52:13-53:12
Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
If we go back to the beginning of Isaiah 52, we can understand the context of the Servant songs.
Isaiah 52
Awake, awake, O Zion, clothe yourself with strength. Put on your garments of splendour, O Jerusalem, the holy city. The uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you again. Shake off your dust; rise up, sit enthroned, O Jerusalem. Free yourself from the chains on your neck, O captive Daughter of Zion.
For this is what the LORD says: "You were sold for nothing, and without money you will be redeemed." For this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"At first my people went down to Egypt to live; lately, Assyria has oppressed them.
"And now what do I have here?" declares the LORD .
"For my people have been taken away for nothing, and those who rule them mock," declares the LORD . "And all day long my name is constantly blasphemed. Therefore my people will know my name; therefore in that day they will know that it is I who foretold it. Yes, it is I."
How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion,
"Your God reigns!"
Listen! Your watchmen lift up their voices; together they shout for joy. When the LORD returns to Zion, they will see it with their own eyes. Burst into songs of joy together, you ruins of Jerusalem, for the LORD has comforted his people, he has redeemed Jerusalem. The LORD will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God.
Depart, depart, go out from there! Touch no unclean thing! Come out from it and be pure, you who carry the vessels of the LORD . But you will not leave in haste or go in flight; for the LORD will go before you, the God of Israel will be your rear guard.
This reference speaks about Israel and not an individual. Israel has been oppressed by Assyria, and sold for nothing and their rulers mock them. But God has declared that things are going to improve for the Israelites, in fact, the LORD will deliver Israel into a better future as He shows his salvation to the ends of the earth.
Keep in mind that the next line is 52:13, the beginning of the 4th servant song. But, of course, the Hebrew texts do not have the chapter and verse divisions and this Song is still speaking of the persecution that Israel has been under, and the promise of deliverance. It does not just suddenly jump forward to speak of some future messiah, neither does it just start referring to another event, it is referring to the oppression of Israel, who is God’s servant:
Isaiah 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
The ”he’ of Isaiah 53 is a personification of Israel, it does not speak of an individual.
Look at 53:3: He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief:
What nation has been more despised and rejected throughout history than Israel? Although Jesus was said to be despised and rejected, he still was loved by many others at the same time. He was followed by huge crowds of people, people even grieved at his execution, he was NOT despised and rejected of men, there was never a time when he was rejected by all.
In 53:7: He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb that is led to slaughter
This, again is obviously talking of the nation of Israel. Isaiah 52:4 Assyria has oppressed them.
”Yet he did not open his mouth’ when being oppressed and afflicted! Jesus hardly shut up for a minute during his alleged oppression and affliction.
In John 18:22-23 for example
And when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, Answerest thou the high priest so? Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?
Jesus also chattered away on the cross, so he can hardly be compared to the suffering servant.
”Like a lamb to the slaughter’ has been likened to Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross but Israel has been described as such in Psalm 44:22
Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.
Isaiah 53:9
because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
How can anyone convince themselves that Jesus had done no violence?
Matthew 21:12
And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves
Jesus’ tantrum at the Temple is well-known; he certainly was violent on this occasion, so how can this be the servant of Isaiah 53?
There are other facts from Isaiah that negate the possibility that the servant is Jesus, but two facts stand out above all others. First, the servant ”shall see his seed, and ”he shall prolong his days’ (53:10).
The Hebrew word for ”seed’ is ”zera’ and always refers to children who are direct offspring, and, as we know, Jesus never had any children.
Finally, ”he shall prolong his days’ cannot apply to Jesus as he died relatively young, in his early 30’s. Christians usually counter this by saying that Jesus is eternal, but this has problems. Firstly, how can an eternal being prolong his days to beyond eternity?
To begin with, the Hebrew words ya’arich yamim (long life) in this verse do not mean or refer to an eternal life which has no end, but rather a lengthening of days which eventually come to an end. These Hebrew words are therefore never applied in Tanach to anyone who is to live forever. In fact, the words ya’arich yamim appear in a number of places throughout Jewish scriptures, including Deuteronomy 17:20, Deuteronomy 25:15, Proverbs 28:16, and Ecclesiastes 8:13. In each and every verse where this phrase appears, these words refer to an extended mortal life, not an eternal one. When the Jewish scriptures speak of an eternal resurrected life, as in Daniel 12:2, the Hebrew words used are l’chayai olam.
Therefore, read in context, it is obvious that the Suffering Servant refers to the remnants of Israel, and in no way can it be referring to Jesus.
Because they are legalistic and just don't get it. Look at how they treat the Law.
I think you are generalising here, and anyway, it is their law in THEIR scriptures, so you would think that they would have a better idea about the Law than anyone else.
They never consider why God says not to do something.
Never?
They are so preoccupied in keeping the Law, that they actually end up neglecting the weightier matters of why there is a Law in the first place, or in this case, why there is a need for a Messiah!
They know why there’s a need for a messiah, they are still waiting on him, but it appears that some Christians are inventing their own idea of what the Jewish messiah is to be.
Looking at the dietary laws, some of the rules appear completely arbitrary. And in the mind of Judaizers, just keeping the Law will make you sqaure with God.
And what in their scriptures is there to contradict this?
And while obedience to God is an amazing thing, we must keep the entire Law! I have Jewish orthodox Jewish friends who seem like they would commit suicide if a piece of pork so much as brushes up against their food and they end up ingesting it.
All religions have their extremists. A colleague once told me about a Christian neighbour of hers who refused to allow surgeons to give her injured daughter a blood transfusion and the little girl died. Then you have that Christian pastor who suffocated a little boy while trying to exorcise him, so all groups have their extremists.
And yet, they have no moral qualms with hitting on other men's wives!
Your Jewish friends or men in general?
Where is there sense of propriety?
You’ll need to ask them. But you cannot tar all Jews with the same brush just because some that you know are womanisers.
You know why? Because every time something very legitimate is shown to you, you either deny it altogether, or people of your persuasion say that religious people, familiar with the scritpures, do what ever they can to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy.
We deny it because the evidence that is always presented is just silly. Look at the example you give in this very post.
You state that:
” So, Jesus could control how and where He was born? “
This is an example of why we get frustrated and bewildered at the gullibility of certain Christians.
How do you know Jesus was born in Bethlehem?
How do you know Jesus was born of a virgin?
He could control the manner of His death?
How do you know about the way He died?
Sure, its conceivable that someone could try and fulfill some of them-- like entering the East gate riding on a donkey.
How do you know He entered the east gate on a donkey?
But He couldn't control how well received He was.
How do you know how well He was received?
Do you see the problem yet?
Your entire reasoning is circular, you are using one part of the Bible to try and support another, you are using the SAME evidence to support ITSELF. You are essentially saying that Jesus was born in Bethlehem because the Bible says Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Can you see any problem here, can you see why so many of us find these claims irrational?
It just goes to show you that you want, very badly, to deny it. And no matter what comes about, you will have some perenniel reason to make it illegitimate.
I would be very happy to accept anything that has sufficient evidence to support it, but when the argument is circular, which is devoid of external support, then I would be an idiot to accept it. But it isn’t just that all of these claims have NO evidence to support them, some are actually shown to be false by external evidence. Take the belief that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, which was supposed to be a fulfilled prophecy, and examine it alongside external evidence and logic. The gospels have Joseph having to take Mary from Nazareth to Bethlehem to register for a census, and Mary has Jesus in Bethlehem. Now, from all available historical evidence this story has been shown to be untrue, you can search the archives for ”Quirinius and census’ as this is a very common discussion. The idea that everyone had to go to the home of a distant ancestor to register is ludicrous, and why would Joseph got to David’s birthplace of Bethlehem and not to the birthplace of another ancestor, and why is there no record of this census?
And He will .
This is a cop out. Where in the Hebrew Bible does it state that the messiah will come, then will be killed, then return at some time in the future? Don’t you know that the idea of the messiah being killed would have a Jew rolling around the floor laughing?
There have never been two messiahs,
There have been dozens.
but rather the same messiah at two different periods in time.
Again, this is alien to Judaism.
They were expecting a warrior king like David.
And they still are.
Instead, they got a humble carpenter from Galilee.
The ”humble’ carpenter who claimed to be God!!!! Yes he was very humble.
But because they still have the promise of Avraham, they will see the Son of David descending with all power and glory, and they will repent, just as the Scriptures say.
Well if it is a son of David that rules out Jesus.
Then show me instead, and I will gladly respond.
Micah 4:1
In the last days the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and peoples will stream to it.
This is the messianic age that the Messiah heralds in.
How many times do I need to explain it. Both Joseph and Mary are in David's bloodline.
How many times do we have to tell you that you are mistaken. I see most people are bored correcting your error, but I don’t mind pointing it out when you keep posting it.
Jesus has it by blood through Mary,
And females do not pass on blood, that’s if this is mary’s genealogy that’s mentioned, plus, even if we allowed Mary’s line, the blood passes through Solomon, who Mary has no link with.
and is grafted in by Joseph.
Joseph passed on no blood to Jesus, and adoption, though noble, passes on no blood.
Joseph, and all those to follow, would inherit the curse spoken of in Jeremiah. Jesus, because of the virgin birth, supersedes all of that, while still remaining connected by blood-- thus fulfilling it.
But He isn’t connected by blood, just read the Bible it tells you all about it.
NO ONE else could be the messiah. Read the major prophets and you will see that an enormous conundrum exists for EVERYONE claiming to be messiah except Jesus.
What is this conundrum, the jeconiah curse?
If you knew the scriptures you'd know that isn't true.
According to scripture and historical evidence, Kokhba was streets ahead of Jesus, you just need to do some more research, and take your blinkers off.
No, it isn't. You are thinking of messianic criteria, not prophecy.
No I’m not.
Tell you what, email your 300 plus ”Messianic prophecies’ to me at bj25 at le.ac.uk and I’ll have a look at then and let you know just how many are not even messianic, I guess now at around 280-85 of them.
He didn't, Isaiah did.
You said in the original post:
So, when Jesus stood up to read the first portion of Isaiah, it describes Mashiac ben Yosef, the suffering servant.
And you cited Luke 4 where it is Jesus who reads from the Book of Isaiah.
So, how do you know Jesus read from the Book of Isaiah?
........... that's what prophecy is, right?
That depends on what is spoken. Prophecy is simply professing what God has said, it doesn’t need to be a prediction about a future event. However, it CAN be a prediction, and if it is to happen within a certain time, then that prophecy would be seen as a failure. For example, the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14, which many Christians corrupt into fitting Jesus for some weird reason, was a prophecy for King Ahaz that predicted the birth of a son to a young girl, that birth was a sign to Ahaz that an alliance that had been formed against him would fail and that God would be with Ahaz. Now, if that child had not been born and King Ahaz had been defeated then that would have been a false prophecy, but the prophecy as a prediction came true and the child appears in Isaiah 8.
So it depends on what the prophecy is about.
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