Christmas Star Explained

Absurd. It doesn't say followed a star, so applying a silly modern meaning to that is doubly unfitting!
It says, that the star 'WENT before' them!
And before, in the greek means, primarily this.
1. to lead forward, lead forthInterlinear Search for '' - NAS with the BHS and NA26 - StudyLight.orgThe followed a guide, in other words, that moved. Right to the house, no less. You can't get a star today to do that by any contorted imaginings. Your case is crushed.

Let's be clear here, it depends on if you are talking about the first ting or the second ting. The spiritual was close at hand before Babel. It was not in the present state, including the time of Jesus.Just because the spiritual level was near, and could have been ascended to before Babel, does not make it physical. The physical bits would be the bodies and tower getting up to it. Once there, they would have encountered a spiritual level. That means that they would have had spiritual and physical together, and apparently that means, possibly they would have lived forever. get it?? It doesn't mean the spiritual level was physical. The spiritual is spiritual, and the physical is physical, and not till the new heavens will they meet. Then it will be eternal state.
If all that is too tough to chew on, just remember that the physical is not spiritual. Yes, it is beyond the realm of this physical only present state of man. A place where God's good spirits live. Not a place man could get to now at all. He went there, with the Father. It was while there, that He prepared New Jerusalem. Now, let's not pretend your questions were answered any more.Do you believe in spirits?? As clearly explained, it was not the spiritual level of the time of Babel, near earth. It was the other ting. Both are a place for spirits. Jesus was physical, and spiritual after He arose, so obviously His city accommodates that. After all, there are departed spirits from here living there as we speak. So, it can house merged or spiritual only, either one.We will come back to earth, for the resurrection of our physical bodies, at the rapture. The dead believers shall rise first. Then, those that are alive will rise up physically, and get their eternal merged bodies.The angels also had to have had some sort of bodies to marry women of earth at the time of Babel.So, for the intents and purposes of this thread, we can consider the merged as spiritual as well. Because it does consist of the spiritual as part of it's make up.As for a detailed study of what may or not have been only spiritual, that is off topic, and irrelevant.
What is relevant is that this spiritual is now separate from the physical only world of man! And has been for a long long time. The Starship Sceptre didn't have to worry about some spiritual level over Bethlehem, relax. No, they are on topic, because it involves a bible case, and your beliefs come into play. Or lack thereof. I don't claim to have science, only to meet the evidence, which your fantasy doesn't do. It fails to meet history. It was not observed. It also is not biblical, and the star of Bethlehem is a bible documented thing. On all fronts, your frog fantasy flops. Checkmate. This paragraph of yours seems to do fine on that score. It is gibberish. You accuse me of not answering questions??? Absurd. If you want someone to relate to what you ask, stop mumbling, and hiding you true beliefs on the topic, and read the plethora of answers I gave, despite your childish behavior. No thanks, I don't need froggy flash cards to note a demented fantasy. I think all readers can get a handle on your little statement of faith. Thanks for that. Nice to see what I am up against in the way of well founded opposition.

Inapplicable Shakespearean drivel. You are trying to explain away the obvious meaning and content of a story. That is like saying the king was really a spider, and the wise men were the three blind mice, and the palace was the wall Humpty sat on. They all sang a chorus of twinkle twinkle Christmas star, how I wonder where you are. So now the star was seen months before. We are making progress here, almost near the two year level. We assume they were in their homeland. How do you know that??? Could one of them have been traveling, and still have seen the star, and had to go back to his jomeland first??? We don't know. Why say it like you know??The star led them from the palace at Jerusalem. It WENT before theme, and brought them to a house. That is leading if ever there was leading. We could deliver a pizza with that kind of bang on accurate leading.You can't deliver a pizza with the big dipper!! Admit it. The ignorant, just heard the news, asleep at the wheel, out of the loop Herod sent them on the strength of an old prophesy. A prophesy that was already fulfilled, according to the bible time frame, because Jesus fled to Egypt right after the wise men visited the house, (likely in Nazareth), because there was no time to do the things as they were fleeing by night, for their lives.To top it off, the starship kicked into gear just at that leaving the palace moment, and went before them to the very house. Herod's silly directions are as irrelevant as his devious and dastardly diabolical designs to destroy the dear Deliverer. It was time to move over, Rover, and let the starship of the Almighty take over guiding the wise men to where Jesus actually was!

You admitted that God had a chariot in Ezekiel. Now you think He couldn't park it near the place where His son was born, for some reason. Despite the fact He said He would behold it afar off. Despite the fact a star can't fit the bill of the Christmas star.You seem to have a problem with UFOs. Whether you have seen any or not, that gives you no right to pretend there is any reason to doubt the bible documented flying machine of the Ancient of days.

Yes it does signify power and dominion, now, tell us why that power and dominion can't be God's??!! After all He is the One with the sceptre. Part of HIS rule over Israel would be through kings. -To say it was nothing more than that is missing the Big picture. Isn't Jesus of the house of David, yet it is unto Him that the people will gather. The major player is Jesus, there, not David. So what?? That is a minor opinion, and I already gave the commentaries and broad agreement on what Shiloh is in that verse. You are trying to plug a hole the dike with your finger here. First of all, did I bring up the Samuel verse? David's throne will be forever, through Jesus. David personally will even be there helping to rule some bits, as a minor player. See, the sceptre is God's. as I said. David's throne, and house are localized things. The main reason David is important is because Jesus came from that house, and is the One that will rule all thrones, and dominions, and principalities, and powers. In heaven and on earth. Hey, I don't agree with every bit of all sources I cite, and usually cite them on a specific point. Your opinion that Shiloh mostly refers to the town is opinion, or that the sceptre refers primarily to God, as well as His agents prophets, and kings, and whatnots, is opinion.The full meaning of that prophesy has never been understood. If you think otherwise you are ,making too much of your little favored opinion. Eat some humble pie. The commentaries contradict your claims. They unanimously agree Shiloh is the savior. You are out flanked. The Almighty is documented to have wheels, as is widely widely known. To claim He could not see Shiloh at birth from afar up is pure nonsense. All that remains is your repeated incredulity about UFOs. That and a dollar and a half might get you a coffee. No matter how you glorify it, animals stink. It is reasonable to assume that Mary would not linger there after the baby was born. She would go home, or some place. Nazareth is not near Bethlehem, they were only there on business. The Greek word for Inn, means this
1. an inn, lodging place
2. an eating room, dining roomThe lodging place was not normally a manger. Unless a cow wanted to rent a room for the night. Get serious. It didn't have to be the Ritz Carleton, to have good food, and sleeping accommodations, and facilities.The wise men would no more have come to a house than the shepherds came to a house!! Nonsense. Not if they came to the manger of Bethlehem. But they didn't, that was long after, in another city, very likely.We do not know how many wise men there were, or where they came from. Most assume Persia. But some of them may have come from further. That means that it took over a year."From Persia, whence the Magi are supposed to have come, to Jerusalem was a journey of between 1000 and 1200 miles. Such a distance may have taken any time between three and twelve months by camel. Besides the time of travel, there were probably many weeks of preparation. The Magi could scarcely have reached Jerusalem till a year or more had elapsed from the time of the apperance of the star."
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: MagiHerod also for some reason assumed that the appearing of the star was the birth of Jesus.
"Herod had found out from the Magi the time of the star's appearance. Taking this for the time of the Child's birth," (same link)So the timing fits. You just can't get the wise men to the stinking stable the night He was born. Otherwise, we need to have them flee with the newborn, and forget going to the temple as He was recorded as doing.A lot hinges on when that star appeared. If it was a star that heralded the birth of messiah, can you tell us why it would appear years before He was born????But all that aside, the star WENT before the wise men, guiding them to a house!!! That star was hovering over the birth of God's son!!! We know that much. God was also there in the starship at the birth of Jesus, and afterwards. He spoke audibly to many when Jesus was being baptized. See if you can guess who was speaking here
'This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased'The fire on the mountain never consumed the bush, so we can say it was not PO fire. By extension, the smoke and fire pillar representing God can not be said to be PO either. Any more than the starship over Bethlehem. No, He spoke very very ill of the Pharisees and rulers of Israel in His day. They wrote squat. To take their oversight of records as anything but suspect is offensive, and antchrist. Ezekiel's wheels flew. The "f" in UFO means flying. Can you evidence that the ark flew?? You can't leave the F OFF.

OK, so you admit that the Almighty has wheels. The Suspect now just needs to be placed at the scene. I already had the Father right up above, talking down at the baptism. Done. It fits, He is admitted to have wheels by you. He was on the scene. He had the opportunity, the motive, the means. What the star is described as dong is moving, and guiding. We have a match! Stars looked like a light in the sky. Get a grip. The information may have come from prophesy, among other things. Or, the starship flew over in the right area of the sky, on it's way to Bethlehem, in conjunction with other astral bodies, that triggered clear alarm bells in the magi. He knew how to pull their chain. OK. Me too. But I suspect that some UFOs are spiritual, some military. Since UFOs are not an issue, it is just the traits of the Christmas star, and what best fits. A flying, hovering spiritual vessel of the Almighty fits best by far. In fact, nothing else does! Just a star does not lead men to a house. Face it.

So you want to call the spiritual level semi solid. OK. Remember, it is long gone now from the world of men. The place before Babel was not that high up. Otherwise we could not build a tower up to it. You seem to think it changed. No. The universe we live in was separated from it. That means it is still the same, we are just not near it.The New Jerusalem I think you call it V2, Is not in the universe of the physical. It is separate. That happened 4400 years ago, that the spiritual was separated, or divided from the physical. People do not believe in spirits because of a forum on the net. So, your answer is you are not sure. OK. The properties of heaven are that it is a spiritual place, now separate from this physical universe state we exist in. You can't get there. It will come to land on earth soon as the new heavens universe state starts. It will then be both physical and spiritual, as will we. The laws governing matter in the eternal, spiritual also state are not our laws of physics. They will pass away. My ideas are BASED on the bible, and fit history. The ascending was after the star of Bethlehem. So, it is not relevant to the topic. The starship of the Almighty will no doubt be in the future, as well as it was in the past. There is no reason to think it did not fly long before this universe was created. I answered the questions. You don't. If you can't answer your own questions, why think anyone else can? If your words were clear, no need to change them. As for what relates and what doesn't you are not the judge.
Many of your questions were as ridiculous as your froggy answers. One tries to answer them, and gets this sort of drivel.The Christmas star had supernatural qualities. Like a ship, it moved to guide men to a house. What about it???

I gotta admit, if you haven't seen the movie, it isn't that funny. The point is, when someone talks about one thing, and is not clear, sometimes things get mixed up. Get it??
Here is a snip of the silly dialog from the movie." BEN
Which thing are you talking about? The first thing or the second thing?SINDONE
What second thing? I only know one thing.BEN
Well, I don't see how we can discuss the first thing without bringing up the second thing. Didn't you talk to the guy? He tugs meaningfully on his earlobe.SINDONE
What guy?BEN
The guy with the thing.SINDONE
What thing? What the fuck are you talking about?BEN
How should I know? You brought it up. (gestures helplessly
to the others) This is the whole problem. You can't have an intelligent conversation with the man.SINDONE
How about if I just break your fuckin' neck? What do you think of that?BEN
It's not important what I think. What do you think?SINDONE
What do I think? I think it's a good idea! Why would I say it if I didn't think it was good?BEN
I don't know. Why would you?SINDONE
(frustrated) I wouldn't! That's what I'm saying!BEN
Have you always had a problem dealing with your anger?SINDONE
What are you talking about?BEN
What do you think I'm talking about?SINDONE
(explodes) I don't know what the fuck you're talking about!" That was where the ting came from. Don't make a federal case over it.Edited by simple, : No reason given.

Here is a clue, who is the One with the sceptre??? Who really ruled, above the kings?? Who kept on ruling, even if some king whathisname bit it?? Who was the Father of Shiloh??? Whoo was to look down from afar?? He was still on the throne in that starship right over Shiloh. Who cares about deposed little kings?? So what??? Having a village named something doesn't mean there ain't the real macoy elsewhere! Ever heard of a town called Zion??? It is in the US. So??? I was not pretending anything about a verse in Samuel. I don't argue that some mickey mouse kings ruled, and supposedly represented God in the so doing. So?? The ultimate fulfillment was not a dying flesh king there. It was speaking of some greater realities, having to do with the future.
Abraham, David, Noah, Adam, and the ass that spoke are all minor platers compared to the king OF kings. Yes. The king of all kings is more important than the little kings. They are important as well. Not even Elvis is as important! Face it, the star that moved and guided men is not made up. Admit it. What you seem to think is special is not ignoring the obviously stated facts of the bible, like the star. Too bad, I use a source for one ting, not all tings. The fact it was small does not matter. Long as it was clean, had good food, and sleeping quarters. The Inn was full. Deal with it. Based on reality. Part of the reality is that the messiah will bring and end to man's rule. precisely. In any language. It describes God flying on something, sitting on a throne. To claim it never flew anywhere else is ludicrous. You have no idea where it went. If you saw it in Jesus' day, you might think it was a star. Maybe. Or maybe the animals mangered out in the back in a manger!? And the context of the Christmas star prophesy is that it is the messiah. Period. So?? Not every detail has to be mentioned in each gospel. Why do you think there are 4??? We get the details looking at the big picture. Mary had the angel appear to her in Nazareth. They had to travel for a census. That is another topic.Wherever the house was, it was where the family now lived, and fled likely that night to Egypt. That rules out the manger. Irrelevant , you will notice it was not countries that followed the star!!! It was men. It was what they cared about that is important. Get it?? OK, you concede that part of the time frame. OK. Yes it does, the time frame is laid out. Certain things had to happen. Besides, this starship was here before the stars!!! So it did stick around longer. A lot longer, we would presume, because this universe is only thousands of years old. The people standing by heard it, so it was in human speech format. There were spiritual elements to some things, of course. The parting of the sea was likely more than physical only, No you are talking about that. I was talking about any records that Israel controlled at the time. Supporting evidences. Ezra not listing it coming from Babylon, etc is not that important.Can you show good records of the ark NOT being in the second temple!!!? Ha. You are dreaming. The ark was a boat. The starship flew. I didn't make this up.Edited by simple, : No reason given.

Well, you seemed to think that the Christmas starship would have a tough time without bumping into a spiritual level that was gone thousands of years before that. So, try and be cohesive.The heaven that we and Jesus ascend to after He died is not in the time of the Christmas starship visit, so ho is it relative??? I don'tt intend to fine tune a description of the spiritual, with someone that appears not to believe in it. You would be unable to get it. Enjoy your purple frogs belief. I already did, and made it clear it was separate from the universe of man at the time of Babel. Further proof you cannot begin to grasp the basics here, so why get into an off topic 'trying to force a horse to drink, after he was led to the water' routine with you???The natural mind can't get these things. Thanks for the vivid demo there. Carry on. You can't do that, I and the bible said He prepared it. There already was a place spirits lived, just not the place He prepared. get over it. It was a place spirits lived,
Far from the realm of man
Somewhere over the rainbow,
Catch me if you can.
Where every dream comes true
And horses fly like men
And we all live forevermore
And girls are young again.
In heaven there is no decay
Angels guard the halls
Sinful man can not ascend
It's precious diamond walls. It should also have something to do with the topic. The spiritual is not debatable, it is a well known reality. The bible is not debatable, it really exists. What it says is open to interpretation, but I don't see you doing that. I don't see any science evidence, or history from you towards one case or the other either. So far, just a strange obsession with learning secrets of the heavens above, you don't seem to believe in anyhow.Glad you think you are doing well. He prepared that place. Whether it was a part of what was there, and He spruced it up, or whether it is an addition He created, I don't know, or care. He was in that spiritual realm when He prepared the city. What about it?? The spiritual realm that Jesus ascended to is not described that much. But it is above and beyond the realm of man. Deal with it. I refuse your off topic junk too. Enjoy. If you were unable to perceive the answers by now, forget about it. No, the bible, and or science and history is fine. Give us your best shot. Already done. I explained all levels of heaven, the future the past, and the present, as well as a bible case that meets all evidence for the Christmas star. Happy now?? Yes, it can take anything you got. Which, so far is nothing at all to do with anything at all about the topic of the star. Work on that.

They thought angels were marrying women, and having babies as well. They had the little giants to prove it.

But God spoke, for example to one king, and launched into talking directly to Lucifer. Jesus talked to Satan directly through Peter.Also, there is this"Luke 1:31-33
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
(KJV)The covenant God made with King David, that from David's seed a righteous King would sit on the Throne of Israel and reign over Israel forever, was specifically applied to Jesus by Gabriel. .."
http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/pd_18.htmlCan you explain to us all here, how it is you think you overrule the archangel of God on who sits on the throne????? Let's look at the first thing, then, shall we??Verse 10. From Judah the sceptre shall not depart
The Jews have a quibble on the word shebet, which we translate sceptre; they say it signifies a staff or rod, and that the meaning of it is, that "afflictions shall not depart from the Jews till the Messiah comes;" that they are still under affliction and therefore the Messiah is not come. This is a miserable shift to save a lost cause. Their chief Targumist, Onkelos, understood and translated the word nearly as we do; and the same meaning is adopted by the Jerusalem Targum, and by all the ancient versions, the Arabic excepted, which has [Arabic] kazeeb, a rod; but in a very ancient MS. of the Pentateuch in my own possession the word [Arabic] sebet is used, which signifies a tribe. Judah shall continue a distinct tribe till the Messiah shall come; and it did so; and after his coming it was confounded with the others, so that all distinction has been ever since lost."
Genesis 49 - Clarke's Commentary - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.orgSo, the tribe, continued, according to this commentary.Now, in Psalm 23 we see the word rod as well." Thy rod and thy staff
shibtecha, thy sceptre, rod, ensign of a tribe, staff of office; for so shebet signifies in Scripture. And thy staff, umishantecha, thy prop or support. "Psalms 23 - Clarke's Commentary - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.orgSo, the sceptre is an ensign, or staff of office. Who's office?? In this case, God's. The spirit of the words here for staff are the word, I would think, and/or His Spirit. They comfort us.God's office continued till Shiloh, the messiah came! In fact He went mobile for the birth!!! He has a mobile office.Now, if the mobile office, or Sceptre was over Bethlehem, and was the sign, or ensign, if you will, that fits!!!!The hebrew meaning for ensign is this--" 1. something lifted up, standard, signal, signal pole, ensign, banner, sign, sail
1. standard (as rallying point), signal
2. standard (pole)
3. ensign, signal "What was lifted up over Shiloh??? The star!! And boy can it sail. It certainly was a signal for the wise men! How much more clear could this stuff be????? If they compared them to the Almighty, of course they would. You again miss the heart and soul of the bible, God was the One behind it the writer, the inspiration, the orchestrator, the king maker, the Head Honcho. No, you interpret it wrong. The throne that God gave David to sit on was from God, and Jesus sat on it. Ask Gabriel if you doubt that. That means His office was still in charge till messiah came. If some king messed up too bad, He sent a prophet! He was the Man in charge, not the little kingies. Get over it. He holds the sceptre. He holds the office. Point??? We are in the end of times, and it has started. False. ---Gen 49:10 - The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes, And to him shall be the obedience of the peoples.Ps 45:6 - Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.As brought out, HIS is the power, and the kingdom, and the glory, and the sceptre, and the office, and the throne, and the wheels! No, Noah was first, Giggie came later. The dates are wrong. The gospels are harmonious, if you add the spiritual key to comprehend. Ha. No. But FYI, the starship is spiritual, but it still really can appear in this universe. Can you prove that??? How do we know that it never disappeared as many commentators feel it must have?? That is why many feel, the wise men were so stranngely glad to see it again.But, since we know the Father was close by all Jesus' life, like at the baptism, etc, we can assume His ship was not that far away. Depends on how high up it was!!! The shepherds were dazzled by a great light from above. They never thought of that encounter as a star. Not at all. When I say spiritual, that means the weapon or device used to part the sea was spiritual. Spiritual weapons work on things physical, you know. You simply seem to think of anything spiritual as unreal. There is a difference between unreal, and not physical only. Great, so you admit there is nothing in the way of collaborating evidence to the bible.Sorry, Ezra doesn't settle the issue, or even deal with it directly. You have no ark case. When they dredge it up, I will know what it really is. End of story. Quite an active imagination. Dreaming stuff up, however doesn't quite cut it. We do not know they were from Persia, all of them, if any. That is assumed. We certainly don't know they were sent by some country. Is that supposed to pass for some argument??

Good, so you clued in on that point. It is too high for man to reach. It was out of your depth of the fishbowl. It was beyond your box of the physical only. It was where it was as the physical was separated from the spiritual. That means you, as a denizen of the PO, are in another dimension. It is way beyond your abilities. Etc. Are you getting some of this??? You just got the precise coordinates. My treat. Good. Get saved, and check it out. Well, you would end up in New Jerusalem, but there, you can get the information on what was before, and maybe still is. Since it is your baby, I can't take responsibility there. Let me try and reduce your agony here, all heavens are spiritual. But keep on pretending it isn't answered, it seems fitting for your stated beliefs. Our link with heaven is the messiah. Jesus. The details of heaven before He returned are not given. It is safe to say it was where good spirits lived, and was separate from the universe state of man. No idea what you are talking about. New Jerusalem was a place Jesus prepared for believers after He ascended to heaven. Oh, so YOU call the heaven before NJ v2. Don't blame me. I was clear.Think of it as 1,2,3! 1 = pre Babel. 2 = Babel till Jesus went there. 3 = New Jerusalem. Don't even need to use your toes to count that. No, thanks. You admit to reality being a stranger to you. I think many already knew that, but thanks for being honest. I think we now realize that asking you yo be topical is asking too much. Hey, how are the frogs doing??? We care. really. I was being overly nice. But when you misuse my good nature, I must lower the boom. I already gave it to you as simple as 1,2,3. Yet you stumble. Yes, I am not the only one that reads this stuff. Surprise. The attributes are that it lasts forever, and there are spirits, and a whole lotta love there. It was not high as you measure things with PO rulers. And the spirits who lived there were spirits, except for Jesus, who was physical and spiritual, as we all will be soon. Maybe that is one reason He prepared a place specially for us. That all you got?? Piece of cake. Oh, you think that the spiritual dwelling of the time of Jesus could interfere somehow with the starship???!!!! What a scream! No. As I said many times, after Babel, the spiritual realm was SEPERATE. No where in the universe we call natural at all.Give us a break. Pitiful.

Right, he was the bearer of the light of God. A physical interpretation has fallen to a planet, but there are older spiritual realities at play here. No. God is talking through the king directly to the devil there. Naturally, any king that would be possessed by the devil would have traits that are similar. But the true meaning is not to a worldly king there at all. Natural man cannot understand that. Of Giggy said that he was right. Noah was granted eternal life. I plan to have a beer with him. You are missing something. If God was alive and well, and sitting on the throne, it is relevant in the extreme. You seem to assume He could only do sttuff after He came down as a man. False. I never said He was chained to the thing!!??? But you show me where He showed up, and then show me it was the Father, not the son, and we can talk turkey. Even then, you need to show where the wheels were not simply just out of sight of man at the time. Let's see them disappear every morning for over a year, and you got a case! Until then, be amazed. I meant that they came from Persia, all of them, for sure. Not that the king was as thick as bricks. Not at all. The stuff that the Babylonians took, or wrecked did not include the ark. Of course. The ark was safe. The people God called to deal with Israel did what they were to do. He was on top of the situation. He may have took it in the starship for a bit, for all we know. A starship can be far away, or closer, that has to do with moving. Unlike a star. First you make stuff up, that a country, and not just wise men gave the gifts, then you play 'name that dreamed up country'. Foolishness. Who thought the wise men were poor??? The poor didn't generally go travelling around the world, following a star! Well, from this thread, you might have something. Work on that.

OK, I already had terms for that. The split was the new nature for man. Merged is both spiritual and physical. And version, really, doesn't matter much. Since it all is out of the realm of man. Even the pre Babel spiritual levels were, because we were never able to get there. That wasn't an option. God would simply not allow it. We really don't know that. We can assume that it was a place for spirits, as it still is, though separate from our heavens at the moment. New Jerusalem will be merged. Aside from that, the spiritual heavens do not really concern man. Spirits are spiritual, and the men living there are spirits, till they get their physical bodies resurrected. I see no value in guessing about the possible merged nature of heaven in general. For all intents and purposes that concern man, it is a spiritual place. Jesus was physical ans spiritual. But does that mean that heaven has to be as well?? Can you explain why a complete, eternal state man, in this case, God's son, could not live in a spiritual heaven?? If you can, maybe we can lock it down to having to be such. Otherwise, who cares??? I care about heaven when I get there, and how it will be for us in the coming eternal state new heavens. You can add the garden of Eden as well, if you like, and the creation of the universe to that. So??? He came down to earth as a man, that was not where He came to start to exist, in case you were thinking something like that. Version four may still be there. It may have been there pre Babel as well. But, yes, it was there at the time of Jesus going to it. There is also hell down there, a place, like a prison, for spirits.As for version 2 being spiritual more or less than pre Babel, we don't know that. It is out of our reach. As for it being able to transport the risen Christ to it, we don't know all the details. We do know that we can fly in our new bodies, and Jesus had His. We also know the Father was close at hand, for example, speaking at the baptism. Also, the topic is about the Father's ship being the Christmas star. If this ship was around, I don't see a better way to get home, than hitch a ride with Dad.Oh, and about the heaven being de natured, after Babel. I thought I said separated?? Separated from our state universe. Again, the details of hell, and heaven, the place spirits live, I don't really know. Do you? I think that so far, what we can say is that a merged body can live there. I suppose we also saw that a merged body could even live here!!! As He did for, what was it a month or two, or some such after He rose from the dead?Also, spirits can assume a body here, as they must have to have babies before Babel. What kind of body, who really knows?? A lot of movies picture spirits that come to earth, as forsaking their eternal state bodies, to become human. I have no idea. Hey, a funny thought! What if that little spiritual area near Babel was merged, because it was inhabited by the angels that liked to mingle with men?? So many mysteries, so little time.
As I say, I simply consider all heavens, and hell to be a spiritual place. At the moment. Don't think I am going to get locked into some guess as to that the spiritual is precisely like at the moment. You attribute motives to God not revealing all things already. Eternity is a long time, and there will always be mysteries to explore, and uncover. Some things He takes His sweet time to reveal. To say He is unable to do something, because He choses to do something else at times, is absurdly ignorant. We were made in His image, with choice. He takes pleasure in some things, and if He likes to cruise in God body, and fun starship at times, we can't assume that is because He is unable ALSO do a lot of other things, maybe at the same time. But that's another story. No, the laws are only constant since they came to be at the split. You assume they were 'created' as you say. They are a branch off, a change, a new state of the universe, or part we live in at least, from a created state that was different' Our laws were not the created state laws, but temporary state laws. We can study, and do study, about these laws, and how this universe now works. But we cannot pretend that this is how it will always be. That is all nonsensical guesswork. God told us lots of things. Maybe we could see it as well? Or maybe we could see UFOs coming or going from the area, or angels flying?? It is man that messed up. Our sin was so great, as evidenced by the flood, that He possibly had to change the state of the universe to limit our lifespans, and keep the spiritual separate. After all, the universe was made for us. We are the reason it is in the state it is in. So??? I feel sorry for those that think God is some inept liar. OK. So how could a star guide you to an exact house, moving precisely?? Remember also that almost any light in the night sky was called a star by the ancients, even planets.