ZeitGeist

Sheesh, talk about reading it in context Did you miss the part where I quoted right after, Exodus, which explains the significance of "I AM," thus further explaining why they all fell down when He said it?

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"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

Let me break it down for you:An actual infinite cannot exist. A beginningless series of events would constitute an actual infinite. We understand this principle from a philosophical point of view, and as well it conforms to observations about the universe. Therefore matter, space, and time (which are intimately connected to one another) had a definite beginning. There is no infinity when speaking about the material universe.Every material thing that exists had a cause in which to explain its existence. If the material world is all you have to explain the material world, how do you get around this megalithic problem without invoking something beyond the material world? In the beginning of matter..... The end. God doesn't, the material world does.... The end. When it says that God is the Word, or He speaks in to existence, again that is allegorical since God, being not made of matter, has no need of vocal chords.Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : double posted on a single post.Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : Did it again!Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : Identified the problem... open url tag

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"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

Crash, the gospel is a compilation of people testifying about Jesus. Its not one source, its multiple sources. And then there are the extra-biblical sources which only further corroborate his existence. The current argument spun by Spektical is that Jesus is purely mythical. Again, you are thinking in terms of the Bible already being composed as a unified work. There was no such thing as the Bible in their day. At most, the only codified writings were the Pentateuch, and that's it. The compiling came long after. Here is a copy and paste of some data I compiled about two years ago:

-Isaiah 52:12 and 53:13

Here we see that the Messiah has a father/son bond that cannot be broken. You may have noticed that it says, when He does wrong, I will punish Him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. Jesus was completely sinless. He never did wrong, but for our sake, He became sin. Sin must be atoned for by blood. Halacha (Jewish Law) makes this very clear. God cannot overlook sin for the sake of justice. However, because of His mercy, God Himself became the propitiation of sin as the only acceptable sacrifice. Because Jesus did this, it is as if Father momentarily looked away from the Son. Therefore, we know from the gospels that Jesus was inflicted with some of the most horrific beatings ever endured by anyone. Romans were champions at torture. They employed some of the most painful tactics ever devised by man’s reprehensible mind.The carnage against Him was so awful that Isaiah prophesied, that, “His body would be marred more than any other man.” His beating was so profound that He literally was a lump of flesh and blood. On the cross He would prophetically cry out, “Eloi, eloi, lama sabachtani?” which in Aramaic, means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken Me?” When Abraham was asked to sacrifice his only son, God did not allow him to complete the task, because He had, no intention of having Abraham complete this. God stopped Abraham and told him that He would provide for Himself an acceptable sacrifice. This ancient story was a shadow of what God was going to do for mankind out of His abundant love in the distant future. Jesus was the acceptable sacrifice, provided by God, Himself. And all of it was done for you and me.Therefore, once again, the Messiah is God, and God the Messiah. This is the very gift of salvation spoken throughout the New Testament that God had in mind from the beginning. Despite all of this amazing prophecy, most Rabbinical scholars seem confused about this prophecy. They know this is a messianic prophecy, but seem unable to understand the breadth of what God has had in mind for His chosen one’s since the beginning. Probably the main reason why most do not believe Jesus was the Messiah is that He did not establish peace on earth. What they fail to realize is that His return is imminent, and though it tarries, God is not slack on His promises.Jesus is Mashiac ben Yosef, and so died on that account that it might be counted as righteousness on our behalf, if we accept this gift. He poured out His life unto death to us all, and yet, not a single one of us is deserving of it. And when the last individual comes to Christ, He will return for His bride. And we will see the glory of His kingdom and the fulfillment of His promise when Jesus comes as Mashiac ben David. The belief that Jesus died, resurrected, and will come again for His bride, is not merely a Christian extrapolation.

Jesse was David’s father. Therefore, when it speaks a Branch, it is referring to Davidic lineage. The Gentiles, such as myself, will follow Him, to the Place He has prepared for us. In addition, He will return to gather the ”elect’, that is, those who have willfully chosen to follow Him, instead of the world. Those who died before second coming are already with Him, “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” Therefore, those who are still on the earth in those days shall be taken to Him.As we have read, there is no greater a candidate for Messiahship than that of Jesus. Here’s the fact: Jesus Christ of Nazareth, is truly, truly, truly, the Mashiac. Whether we believe or not, is inconsequential to it’s truthfulness. Furthermore, He is coming back, despite all of what some mockers will say otherwise. I have personally counted 317 messianic prophecies of the Old Testament that have been, or have nearly been fulfilled in the New Testament.Perhaps, one of my favorite prophecies is the spelling out of the gospel, starting from day one, showing us God’s plan from the very beginning. In Genesis, chapter 5, we see here a list of names from Adam to Noah. This appears to be the genealogy of the very first generations of men, and indeed, it is. However, there is more than meets the eye. For the most part, and particularly in ancient times, Hebrew names all meant something. That is to say, their names took on an attribute in the form of a verb, noun, or adjective. Similarly, we see the same type of names given in many Native American cultures. When we translate the names to their original denotation, we see an integrated message, spelled out.

“Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow; (but) the Blessed God shall come down teaching (that) His death shall bring the despairing rest.”Because this genealogy comes directly from the Torah, it is undisputed that this could not be some insertion made by Christians. This demonstrates that from the beginning, the omniscient God of all that is, had this love story in mind before the creation of the universe. This is a love story, penned in blood on a wooden cross. Very clearly, we see a supernatural engineering, proving that what is written in the Word is above all, trustworthy.One of my favorite messianic prophecies comes from Luke’s gospel. It was only until recently that, I stumbled across this passage. I probably overlooked numerous times, simply because I did not cross-reference the book of Isaiah. When I understood the true meaning of the passage that I had glanced over before, I was awestruck at its messianic significance.

What in the world does that mean? Why did He pick that particular verse and not finish reading what was written? And what did it mean that ”today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.’ How was it fulfilled? In order to answer that, we should find the place where He was reading in Isaiah.

What does that mean? What is the significance? God, speaking through Isaiah is telling His people, 760 years before Jesus would walk the earth, that the Gentiles would follow Him and that they would prosper, but His own people would be in derision. This is exactly what we have seen for the last 2,000 years. Isaiah is describing the church-age and how God would prosper in the hearts of true Christians who obeyed His voice. So, when Jesus stood up to read the first portion of Isaiah, it describes Mashiac ben Yosef, the suffering servant.Jesus, we know from the gospels, would fulfill this time in that generation. Jesus read this portion because His ministry had begun as the suffering servant. He sat down at the exact moment that Isaiah then describes Mashiac ben David, because His time as the Glorious Messiah would come later. So truly, there are not two separate messiahs, but rather, two separate times that He would appear in history in order to fulfill what was written by the prophets.Finally, one of the most remarkable prophecies recorded in the Bible comes to us from Daniel, written 600 years before Jesus’ time. God instructed Daniel when the approximate date that Mashaic ben Yosef would be cut off for our sins. The passage in Daniel, chapter 9, is somewhat cryptic and ambiguous. Nonetheless, the message has not been dulled and only an omnipotent God could engineer such a masterpiece. This passage gives us a timeline for much of what God would be doing with the nation of Israel and the Messiah. In their apostate condition, Israel had been taken to Babylon. God told the nation Israel that they would be in captivity for seventy years.A remnant of people would come back at the appointed time under Ezra in order to rebuild Solomon’s Temple. However, permission to rebuild the Temple was given to King Artaxerxes, which secular history places it around 447 to 445 BC. Seventy weeks are described in Daniel’s prophetic book. The best translation of the word, though, is best described, simply as ”seven.’ The timeframe described is ”seventy sevens.’ When we think of the number seven, most of us probably correlate it to weeks.As it turns out, God has in mind, years, and not literal days. Thus, we are talking about a total period of approximately 490 years (490 = 70 x 7), hence, seventy sevens. According to the table, it would take 7 weeks, that is, 49 years, to complete the rebuilding of the second Temple. After this time there would be another 62 weeks, or (434 years) until the Messiah would be killed. The death of the Messiah would accomplish all kinds of things and directly form the Scriptures to verifiable history; this is the closest approximation we could possibly get. Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem occurred 173,880 days (483 x’s the Hebrew 360 day, year). Jesus Christ fits so amazingly well into this timeline, that given this piece of Scripture alone, we should know beyond all reasonable doubt that Jesus truly is the Messiah. You see, anyone hoping that the Messiah was not, Jesus, must find another Jewish man who comes from the line of David, but that can supersede the curse of Jehoiachin, who was born of a virgin, out of the Tribe of Judah and that comes from Bethlehem in this exact period of time. All I have to say, is, good luck. When we left off from the book of Daniel, the days were calculated in the following manner: 445 BC to 32 AD, is 476 years. Multiply these years according to the Julian calendar of 365 days per year. This amounts to 173,740 days. Add 116 days for the corrected number of leap years and the difference of 24 days between March 14th and April 6th, reckoning inclusively to Jewish practice. Thus, the total amounts to 173,880 days. From the time Daniel spoke this prophecy to the time of Jesus’ crucifixion, this formula is exacting.But, the prophecy concerning Jesus, the Mashiac, does not end here according to the Book of Daniel. There is, a final seven years that is unaccounted for, and this final lapse of time is extremely important to both you and I. In the next and final chapter of this book, we will see how everything we have been discussing ties in to one another. However, before I continue with this discourse, it is of great necessity that we clarify some issues concerning my Lord and King, Jesus Christ.AND THIS IS WHAT IS TO COME:

Damascus is the capital of Syria and is said to be the oldest, continuously inhabited city in human history. ”Aroer’ is a city in south central Jordan. Both countries are staunchly opposed to Israel. We are currently unsure where this prophecy fits, as far as chronology is concerned. Nonetheless, the events described will take place. I personally feel that this event will precipitate the beginning of WWIII. With the newly acquired nuclear technology, at least in relation to all of human history, the world is constantly in fear of nuclear proliferation. Is it so impossible for us to conceive the plausibility of this given the current, hostile disposition of the Middle East? Certainly not! Ask any heads of nations today how serious of a threat this truly is, irrespective of whether they believe in Bible prophecy or not. I believe that his is the event that will unleash destruction on a level never before seen by mankind. Nations will take sides and make war with one another. When this dramatic, sequence of events takes place, the whole world take notice.

For those who haven’t the spiritual discernment or those that lack the knowledge of this intellectual discourse have a difficult time understanding this passage. The book of Ezekiel is a tough read, unquestionably, without the foreknowledge of some scriptural foundation. Allow me to unravel this mystery to greater serve the reader. To understand the significance of the names listed, we have to go back to the beginning. In Genesis 10, we have listed the Table of Nations. All the names listed are progenitors of nations and people groups.

This brings us to the other names listed in this prophecy. The next set of nations will stand with Israel and apparently will come to her aid when the invasion begins.Sheba and Dedan: (Saudi Arabia) These were the names of cities located in what is now Saudi Arabia. It is unclear why Saudia Arabia would show contempt towards the actions of these mostly Muslim nations. In all actuality, the Saudi’s routinely have some of the highest percentages of terrorist cells in the world. We do know, however, that Saudi Arabia is also the most Westernized of all the Muslim nations and has done it’s part in thwarting terrorism. It is unclear if they will fight against the invaders or sit quietly on the sidelines. In either case, they will question the actions of its neighbors in days to come.Tarshish: (Britain) The theory concerning Tarshish is one that has been debated for a long time. Without going into a huge discourse, most scholars are firm on the belief that it is speaking of either Spain or Britain, or perhaps, both. Some scholars suggest that ”Kittim’ is Spain’s Biblical reference and that Tarshish, then, must definitely be the UK. In Ezekiel’s prophecy, there is also mention that Tarshish, and her young lions will engage the enemies of Israel, as well. We can only logically assume that this is speaking of the branches of either Spain (Mexico, Argentina, Columbia, etc) and/or Britain (United States, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, etc). This battle, however, should not be confused with the battle of Armageddon, or Har-Magedon in Hebrew. This is only a taste of the Tribulation that will befall on all of those who remain on the earth. From this preemptive battle, of the world’s population will die, which makes us wonder if nuclear weaponry is employed for there to incur such a high number of casualties.A question you might be asking yourselves is, “When will this happen and what will be the signs of the times?” This is an excellent question and one that was posed to Jesus by His disciples. Jesus elucidates for us in the gospel of Matthew.

Jesus makes it quite clear that we do not the exact time of His coming, but that we can have an estimation based on the events that begin to unfold by watching the things that come to pass. It is with mixed feelings that I report to you that all of the things that were to pass, have passed, for the rapture of the church to happen. After the terrible persecution of the Jews under the Nazi regime, the Allied Forces defeated Germany and its axis of evil. The world did not know where to place the remnant of Jews. It was a joint effort between England and the United States who established the Balfour Declaration.Under this edict, the Jews would again become, Israeli’s, uniting them under one nation, just as their forefathers were. After many reports throughout the centuries, it was clear that the land of Palestine was little more than a Middle Eastern squat, owned by the Ottoman empire and inhabited by Bedouins and other sojourners who had no real intention of establishing or legitimizing the land. It was only until, Israel repatriated that the Arab world would oppose it so strongly, kindling the ancient sibling rivalry that dates back to Abraham, through Isaac and Ishmael. The only thing I can liken this rivalry to, are little children fighting over a toy. Suppose one of my two kids has a certain toy that he or she never plays with anymore. When their sibling goes to play with the toy, then, and only then, does this toy become so utterly important to them. All of a sudden, it becomes a travesty that their sibling is using the toy despite their lack of zeal for it prior, to that time. Catch my drift? This is what has happened in Palestine in the late 40’s and that is continuing with its venom to this day.

After the Rapture it is understood that with this many people gone, unexplainably through secular eyes, the world economy will take a nosedive. The nations greatest affected will be the nations that follow God en masse, because a high percentage of them will no longer exist in the earthly realm. Life will become difficult for a small season. In the middle of the 70^th week, a European man will come to pick up the pieces. He will work to consolidate the nations and to unify countries into one conglomerate. We already see this kind of unification taking place in Europe with the European Union (EU) and the United Nation (UN). With the exception of England, all of Europe uses the Euro as it’s main form of currency. This consolidation of countries will spread worldwide. The economy will bounce back and it will be life as usual, if not better than it is now.A sense of peace and prosperity will be enjoyed for approximately 3 times. The word times is difficult to translate in the Bible. It is estimated to be about a year, but the Bible is very careful not to use the word, year. Nevertheless, this just further confirms that Daniel’s prophecy was all the more accurate, because 3 times 2, equals 7. Therefore, this man will be highly venerated and his approval rating will likely be higher than any other that preceded him will. He will essentially be worshiped, as if, to a god. He even establishes a synthetic peace with Israel and works to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem. This man is none other than the antichrist.

Many people have claimed evil dictators to be the anti-christ, such as Hitler or Stalin, however, the Scriptures make it clear that this man will be loved by many nations. He will be a bastian of hope for the world and will deceive many. After 3 times, he will show his true nature and the Jews, in particular, as well as the rest of the Tribulation saints (those that have turned to Jesus after the Rapture: which many of you may become) will begin to understand his deception. He will trample the Holy city (Jerusalem) for forty-two months. During that length of time, God will provide for Himself, ”two witnesses’ who will prophesy and preach the gospel for 1,260 days in sackcloth and ashes. They will no doubt speak against the antichrist and will serve as a warning to the people of the world. No one knows who the two witnesses will be. Some speculate that it will be Enoch and Elijah, because they never physically died, and it is appointed unto every man to die a physical death. Others say that it is John the Baptist and Moses. Regardless, these are mighty men of God who are to be revered and their instructions taken to heart. At this time, this pseudo-peace will soon end, and when it does, the earth will experience an extreme chaos never seen before, nor, will ever be seen again.

This picture, no doubt, is referring to the nation Israel, who is coming to their senses. They know the man that the world is worshiping is an idol, and worship belongs to the Lord alone. They will seek refuge in a sanctuary in which to honor, praise, and pray to God. Just prior, to this occurance, the third Temple will be erected in Jerusalem. But the man of lawlessness; the son of perdition; the anti-christ,’ will set up the abomination that causes desolation.The imnportant thing to remember is that eventually Israeli's en masse will come to their senses, thus fulfilling the following prophecy:

All this will come to pass, either in this generation or one to come. Given the headlines on the news, we are perhaps right on the very cusp of this reality. Food for thought.-Zechariah 12:10Edited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : Edit to add captionsEdited by Nemesis Juggernaut, : Edit to add

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"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

Yes, I have the complete Nag Hammadi series in my favorites folder. In the early years when Christianity was a fledgling religion, many sources eager to write about Jesus began to, themselves, write about things they weren't acquainted with. This was beginning to confuse the laymen. So their was a convening body of scholars to who looked at the facts and determined and canonized what was actual and what was heretical.Here is the transcripts of the Council of Trent, as well as the Nicene Council

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"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

Numbers are not actual infinities. They are concepts, which was explained in the article I presented."In mathematics, actual infinity is the notion that all (natural, real etc) numbers can be enumerated in some sense sufficiently definite for them to form a set. Hence, in the philosophy of mathematics, the abstraction of actual infinity involves the acceptance of infinite entities, such as the set of all natural numbers or an arbitrary sequence of rational numbers, as given objects.

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The mathematical meaning of the term actual in actual infinity is synonymous with definite, not to be mistaken for physically existing. The question of whether natural or real numbers form definite sets is therefore independent of the question of whether infinite things exist physically in nature."

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"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

The people that wrote specifically about Him, were all alive during His ministry. Matthew was one of His disciples, so was John, so was Peter, Luke and Mark were probably very young at the time, but alive nonetheless, James is His own brother, Paul was alive during this time, but was best known as Saul the Pharisee.What do you mean they weren't alive? If veterans of the Afghanistan war decided to write a book 40 years later, are you saying their testimony is invalid? All the one's I posted which go in to detail about who Jesus was and how His followers dealt with life. That Jesus is in fact was an actual figure in human history, not some myth that sprang out of thin air, as Spektical seems to believe by faith. .... Wow, that seals the deal for me... All or most of the Nag Hammadi were much later editions. The average span for anything in the NT is about 30-70 years. You stated that prophecy is vague. I gave very specific references, like Daniel's prophecies. That's what makes it relevant. With how quickly you responded, I'm guessing that you didn't even bother to read it, which is precisely why I save these things to avoid having to write them out over and over again. Oh, right... So they had the Romans destroy their city and Temple? Or they conspired thousands of years after their death to get the Jews to repatriate Israel...? Or Jesus could help where he was born, how he was born, etc, etc...? Crash, even supposing they did fabricate even most of it, some things were completely beyond their control. Secondly, why invent a story out of thin air that got them all killed in a horrific way, unless there was at least some measure of truth to it? Really let that sink in for a minute. Are you alleging that no such person as Jesus existed and that controversy sprang out of a turnip field? Since it was saved to my computer, thankfully I didn't. But noted... I won't every go in to that great of detail with you again. I'm of the opinion that its coming very soon. If after you read it, if and when it happens in your lifetime, I'm hoping that it will cause you come back to Him. “scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, ”Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.’ For this, they willfully forget: that by the Word of God, the heavens were of old... beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance.” -2^nd Peter 3:3-9

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: So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

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During the time of the Gentiles (I already wrote in detail about all of this) we are in the parenthesis of Daniel's 69th and 70th week. Therefore, this generation truly will not pass away until all things have been accomplished.

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"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

"In mathematics, actual infinity is the notion that all (natural, real etc.) numbers can be enumerated in some sense sufficiently definite for them to form a set. Hence, in the philosophy of mathematics, the abstraction of actual infinity involves the acceptance of infinite entities, such as the set of all natural numbers or an arbitrary sequence of rational numbers, as given objects.

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The mathematical meaning of the term actual in actual infinity is synonymous with definite, not to be mistaken for physically existing. The question of whether natural or real numbers form definite sets is therefore independent of the question of whether infinite things exist physically in nature.Here's the paraphrase: In mathematics, numbers are representative of actual physical properties. (representative being the operative word) When using mathematical expressions, it is represented as if it were an actual possibility, but should not be confused with actual physical properties, hence the differentiation between the infinite (which mathematically possible) versus "actual infinity" which deals with tangible objects (which has never been known to be demonstrably possible in the material) I wonder the same of you But really all of it is quite intuitive. There are no actual infinites in the known universe. To believe there does also means one must implicitly deny the big bang.

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"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

No, you are confusing the canonization of the first Bible, not the individual documents.Marks gospel: 15-30 years
Matthew's gospel: 1-50 years
Luke's gospel: 10-40 years
John's gospel: 10-90 yearsAll of Paul's, Peter's, and James epistles: 1-65 years What is your indisputable evidence that they were all dead? With a quill, ink, and papyrus. So James, Jesus' brother, never met Jesus? Peter never met Jesus? Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus. Well, then I guess world war II and Vietnam vets should not write about their personal experiences. Josephus, the Talmud, etc... Crash, there is far more evidence that Jesus existed than almost any other human from antiquity, which only proves your bias. Its amazing that anything has lasted the test of time, let alone, numerous documents talking about the same man. How do you know that he never did any of the things in the Bible? What would multiple people lie about no one at all, which got them all murdered for? For posterities sake, you have to at least admit that something grand in those days took place. Whether Jesus was a magician or whatever, something happened which all of them wholeheartedly believed. Fine. That's at least a start. I already stated that questioning his deity is one thing, but his personhood is another thing altogether. How do you suppose a story like that could have taken off? What do you think precipitated it? Its relevant to corroborating who he was and how he went on proving he was exactly what he said he was. The Temple has been destroyed in two separate times in history. The second Temple, Solomon's Temple, was destroyed in 70 AD. You are thinking about when the Babylonians, under Nebucahdnezzar, destroyed the first Temple in 587 BC. It was rebuilt and then destroyed a second time by the Romans in 70 AD. And how, pray tell, were they going to do that when almost all of them were slaughtered at the time when they were repatriated? Who wanted it to be true? The English? The Turks? You forget that they had many, many displaced Jews. They tried to find them a home in many places other than Israel, but no one wanted that many people-- including America. Yeah, we'll just see what see, now won't we? Won't matter to me if I'm wrong. I'll just die with no more consciousness, according to prevailing secular thought. Its of no consequence to me either way. Can't say the same for you, unfortunately. I either win big or lose nothing. And if this all starts happening within your lifetime? It won't be so stupid, now will it? No, its between the week, and the week is representative of years.

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"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

Are you kidding me??? Are you really trying to fight a fight you lost the second you started typing away? Crash, beyond this, it doesn't even dignify a response.

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"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

How so?

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What was "snide" about it? I was just illustrating a point.

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Well, ain't the kettle calling the pot black. You indict any and all creationists, including their mothers, and their mothers mother. So don't talk to me about cherry picking when you live under the cherry tree. Thanks.Secondly, like I said, using Huxley as a reference was a direct reflection of Spektical, to whom I was answering.

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"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

Thanks for the heads up.

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"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

How much more clear could it possibly be?

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"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

Instead of just making unsubstantiated rebuttals, explain your reasoning on why you believe as you do. Because they are legalistic and just don't get it. Look at how they treat the Law. They never consider why God says not to do something. They are so preoccupied in keeping the Law, that they actually end up neglecting the weightier matters of why there is a Law in the first place, or in this case, why there is a need for a Messiah!Looking at the dietary laws, some of the rules appear completely arbitrary. And in the mind of Judaizers, just keeping the Law will make you sqaure with God. And while obedience to God is an amazing thing, we must keep the entire Law! I have Jewish orthodox Jewish friends who seem like they would commit suicide if a piece of pork so much as brushes up against their food and they end up ingesting it.And yet, they have no moral qualms with hitting on other men's wives! Where is there sense of propriety? Where is their sense of realism? Have they ever stopped to understand the symbolism and the practicality in the dietary laws? This is the same type of spiritual blindness that Jesus indicted the Pharisee's with, who have an intellectual understanding of the Law, but no common sense when it comes to it. Matthew 23 is one of the greatest illustrations of how legalists have robbed God of honor to take it upon themselves.And as a result, Jesus says to them:"For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." You know why? Because every time something very legitimate is shown to you, you either deny it altogether, or people of your persuasion say that religious people, familiar with the scritpures, do what ever they can to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy.It just goes to show you that you want, very badly, to deny it. And no matter what comes about, you will have some perenniel reason to make it illegitimate.

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Probably the main reason why most do not believe Jesus was the Messiah is that He did not establish peace on earth.

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And He will... See, there has long been controversy concerning the Mishnah about what seems to be like two separate messiahs. There have never been two messiahs, but rather the same messiah at two different periods in time. They were expecting a warrior king like David. Instead, they got a humble carpenter from Galilee.But because they still have the promise of Avraham, they will see the Son of David descending with all power and glory, and they will repent, just as the Scriptures say. Then show me instead, and I will gladly respond. How many times do I need to explain it. Both Joseph and Mary are in David's bloodline. Jesus has it by blood through Mary, and is grafted in by Joseph. Joseph, and all those to follow, would inherit the curse spoken of in Jeremiah. Jesus, because of the virgin birth, supersedes all of that, while still remaining connected by blood-- thus fulfilling it. NO ONE else could be the messiah. Read the major prophets and you will see that an enormous conundrum exists for EVERYONE claiming to be messiah except Jesus. If you knew the scriptures you'd know that isn't true. No, it isn't. You are thinking of messianic criteria, not prophecy. So, Jesus could control how and where He was born? He could control the manner of His death? Sure, its conceivable that someone could try and fulfill some of them-- like entering the East gate riding on a donkey. But He couldn't control how well received He was. Then what is the suffering servant? He didn't, Isaiah did. I'm very aware that most modern day Jews don't consider it, not for supposed blunders, but because of the staggering implications. ........... that's what prophecy is, right? Yup, that sneaky little bugger....People rail against the historicity of Jesus for positive things, but make up assertions about Him so long as they believe it will discredit him... Can't have it both ways.

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"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

I believe in all of it, as all of it has purpose to it. Your quote of me wasn't me excluding the importance of the dietary laws, but rather looking at their symbolism and their practicality-- something I don't see many Hasidic Jews doing. If you'll notice what topics I engage in, I don't readily engage in topics that deal with age estimates because, quite frankly, I'm not one for an old earth or a young earth. In my opinion, Moses could have literally meant 6 days, or those days could have been epochs in time. To me it doesn't matter all that much. That being said, I am still open to looking at all different angles and debating various theories. I don't know what you mean here. Can you please expound? If you read the NT juxtaposed by the OT, it explains the purpose of the Law, and how Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law... Jesus did not want to abolish the Law in any way. He either fulfilled it or explained its deeper meanings-- something which seemed to have been lost in the Jewish population at that time. Someone who tries to foist the Law on people as a burden, even after having received the Law of Christ. It also, from a Biblical perspective, that the early Jewish Christians were expecting gentiles to take upon them Jewish customs. Peter and Paul used to argue over this considerably. But more than that, the Pharisees were always trying to test Jesus, where they would ask Him "difficult" questions concerning the Torah. And then Jesus would proceed to annihilate them using the very Scriptures used to trip Him up. Sure, that sounds like a really fun debate. Write it up.

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"It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias

This is patently false for any number of reasons. For starters, I would like for you to show me one other verse that personifies the nation Israel as masculine pronoun. Really? Think about that for a minute. Historical Judaism knows very well this is a messianic prophecy, especially since it speaks about events that have not taken place. Please note the numerous "He shall" comments made by the author.Secondly, the implications for this being messianic along with the obvious parallels by Jesus must make some of them quite uncomfortable. Is it so inconceivable that they did the same thing they did with Daniel, which is now allege that it isn't prophetic or messianic because of the implications?I am taking the liberty to insert the word "Israel" everywhere Isaiah mentions "He" or "Him." Then you tell me if it makes any sense.Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, [Israel] shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonished at thee; [Israel] visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

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So shall [Israel] sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at [Israel]: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

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Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

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For [Israel] shall grow up before [Israel] as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: [Israel] hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see [Israel], there is no beauty that we should desire him.

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[Israel] is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from [Israel]; he was despised, and we esteemed [Israel] not.
Surely [Israel] hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem [Israel] stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."Wait, wait.... What? The "we" in the passage is very obviously speaking about the Jewish people's, hence, Israel. So why is Israel talking about Israel? And [we](Israel) hid our faces from [him](Israel)....? [he](Israel) hath borne [our](Israel's) sins???Moving on."But [Israel] was wounded for (our) transgressions, [Israel] was bruised for (our) iniquities: the chastisement of (our) peace was upon [Israel]; and with [Israel's] stripes (we) are healed."I'm gonna have to stop again to figure this out. Israel was wounded for Israel's trangessions? Israel was bruised for Israel's iniquities? Israel's peace was upon Israel; and with Israel's stripes, Israel is healed????Wow... Colored me unconvinced so far. Moving on."All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on [Israel] the iniquity of us all.

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[Israel] was oppressed, and [Israel] was afflicted, yet [Israel] opened not [Israel's] mouth: [Israel] is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so [Israel] openeth not [Israel's] mouth.

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[Israel] was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? For [Israel] was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was [Israel] stricken."Wait a minute Isaiah... Israel was cut off because the transgression of who? Your people? Who are your people? Jews? Israelites? So Israel will be saved by Israel because of Israel's iniquities... Gotcha. Moving on."And [Israel] made [Israel's] grave with the wicked, and with the rich in [Israel's] death; because [Israel] had done no violence, neither was any deceit in [Israel] mouth."Israel had done no violence? Isaiah, are we talking about the same Israel as Brian?"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise [Israel]; he hath put [Israel] to grief: when thou shalt make [Israel's] soul an offering for sin, he shall see [Israel's] seed, he shall prolong [Israel's] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in [Israel's] hand.

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He shall see of the travail of [Israel's] soul, and shall be satisfied: by [Israel] knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for [Israel] shall bear their iniquities.

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Therefore will I divide [Israel] a portion with the great, and [Israel] shall divide the spoil with the strong; because [Israel] hath poured out [Israel's] soul unto death: and [Israel] was numbered with the transgressors; and [Israel] bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."I wasn't aware that the nation of Israel could bare people's sin, something only God can do in the rest of Scripture. I learn something new everyday. Yes it does. Read Isaiah Ezekiel and Jeremiah. All three of those authors are particular to not having a clear sequence of events, which means you have to pay attention to what you're reading. "Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. When he was accused by the chief priests and the elders, he gave no answer. Then Pilate asked him, "Don't you hear the testimony they are bringing against you?" But Jesus made no reply, not even to a single charge”to the great amazement of the governor." -Matthew 27:11-14The rest is too lengthy to tackle currently. We will pick up the rest tomorrow.

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“This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake