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Author | Topic: So difficult to keep up! (Re: Memeber of the religious right running morally amuck) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
i disagree. sure, they're not "hard" sciences, but they have offered important insights and i think they can tell us more than you realize. I have a degree in Anthro, Brenna. I know what it has to offer. Why do you think I'm a biochemist now? I'm not implying that the soft sciences have nothing to offer. But they are notoriously squishy.
yes, i am aware. and, i can't be sure. we know that animals exhibit classic signs of victimization from physical abuse (especially from humans), so i can't see why they wouldn't demonstrate similar responses to sexual abuse. it may be difficult to study because they can't tell us how they're feeling... Animals in the wild, Brenna. Not domestic animals.
but the big thing here is are we reducible to our dna? i think it's very obvious that we aren't. a great deal of our behavior is determined by our psychological "mindset" (for want of a better word). i noticed you didn't comment on the eating disorder comments. what's more base, more ingrained than the need to eat? self-preservation? clearly there are people in the world who lack that, as they seek harm or inflict it on themselves or seek to end their lives. don't you think that psychological experience might affect that? clearly, our most ingrained needs aren't so impervious to our realities. Eating disorders are not found in "primitive" societies. No, we are not hard wired automatons. But research is piling up that genetics play a much larger part in our behavior than we would like to think. Ever since the human genome came online, people have been pulling it apart to test for diseases of all sorts, including those that were previously thought to be strictly "environmental". Et voila. Genetic clues are found. Research is ongoing, so there aren't any definite answers yet. After all, the genome has only been available for 10 years.
naturally, humans have no "orientation," no "gay", no "straight", no us and them, no establishment and other. as such, "straight" may be a result of a kind of sexual abuse in the form of traditional repression. Again, ongoing research suggests otherwise. I don't have the time right now to discuss comparative studies (bonobo v. human, western v. hunter gatherer) but I will as soon as I finish studying for my exam tomorrow. One final note. Homosexuality and heterosexuality are a fact of human existence and that of most other animals. Our closest cousins do have a looser definition of homo and het, but the line is still there.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
OK, then I'm confused again.
What's with the he and his? btw. You cut the quote short. I said "not in a negative way".
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3959 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
HSV and HPV can be transmitted with or without a condom, especially if an infection site cannot be covered by that condom. i believe i said that.
but because heterosexual women were becoming infected too. but they had to have been, in fact, i knew one.
one. wiki hardly counts as proof.two. there are two mentions of gays on that list, and a third who was "suspected." the rest seem to be straight, especially since there's no mention in their entries as being gay. also, i'd like you to think about how many openly and exclusively gay people there would be in sub-saharan post-missionary colony africa. What does that have to do with the fact that G.R.I.D., first identified in San Fransisco (wink-wink), had to do with the epidemic of gay men in the early years? We all know that it can affect any human being. I'm just telling you that in the early years, it was first identified in homosexuals. clearly, the early years in your source don't talk about san fransisco or gays.
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3959 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
What's with the he and his? it's called english. an unknown gender is "he." people who have to use "she" or specify the unknown need to get over their vaginas.
I said "not in a negative way". tell me about a good disease.
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3959 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
But they are notoriously squishy. and?
Animals in the wild, Brenna. Not domestic animals. are you suggesting that domestic animals have amazingly evolved higher sentience than wild animals?
Eating disorders are not found in "primitive" societies. which further suggests that it's a social and psychological mutation, unless you're suggesting that we're genetically distinct from "primitive" societies.
But research is piling up that genetics play a much larger part in our behavior than we would like to think. i'd really like to think that everything i do is what i was born to do and not what society has made me. that would make my accomplishments mine alone. but it's simply not the case.
Homosexuality and heterosexuality are a fact of human existence and that of most other animals. Our closest cousins do have a looser definition of homo and het, but the line is still there. most lines we think exist are lines we've invented.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
1. What do you think caused your heterosexuality? God. *shrugs*
2. When and how did you first decide you were a heterosexual? About the same time I decided I was a human-- meaning, never.
3. Is it possible your heterosexuality is just a phase you may grow out of? If it is, I haven't snapped out of it.
4. Could it be that your heterosexuality stems from a neurotic fear of others of the same sex? Well, yes... Clearly I'm neurotically afraid of members of the same sex, which is why I only associate with female friends.
5. If you’ve never slept with a person of the same sex, how can you be sure you wouldn’t prefer that? I have. On three separate occasions. Every time it was just.... no. And that's not including the time I was molested by my neighbor.
6. To whom have you disclosed your heterosexual tendencies? How did they react? The ladies responded well to it.
7. Why do heterosexuals feel compelled to seduce others into their lifestyle? I've never known that to be the case. However, homosexuals have attempted to seduce me to their "lifestyle" on a multiple occasions.
8. Why do you insist on flaunting your heterosexuality? Can’t you just be what you are and keep it quiet? I'm not flaunting it. I'm just debating.
9. Would you want your children to be heterosexual, knowing the problems they’d face? Yes, I would want my children to be heterosexual, because of the problems they'd face as homosexuals. Don't most homosexuals say they'd prefer if their children were straight?
10. A disproportionate majority of child molesters are heterosexual men. Do you consider it safe to expose children to heterosexual male teachers, pediatricians, priests, or scoutmasters? No, being that homosexuality comprises a small percentage of the human population, the disproportionate number seems to afflict the homosexual male ranks. But we can even further deduce that the overwhelming trend for child molesters is that 95% or higher are male, period. How do I feel about strange men watching my children-- either my child or daughter? I'm apprehensive at the least, and refuse it at the worst. Its like my wife says. We see an add on Craigslist for a male daycare provider. And he may be perfectly wonderful and capable. No doubt about it. Unfortunately, given the deplorable history of males around children, she simply feels much more at ease when a female is watching the kids. Call that sexist if you will, but I, a male, feel the same way as she does.
11. With all the societal support for marriage, the divorce rate is spiraling. Why are there so few stable relationships among heterosexuals? Because they often follow worldly advice that only compounds the issue, and places a band-aid over amputation wound.
12. Why do heterosexuals place so much emphasis on sex? Depends on the heterosexual. Some more than others.
13. Considering the menace of overpopulation, how could the human race survive if everyone were heterosexual? The "menace of overpopulation?" I suppose homosexuality is natures way of population control?
14. Could you trust a heterosexual therapist to be objective? Don’t you fear s/he might be inclined to influence you in the direction of her/his own leanings? No, unless they gave me some inclination otherwise.
15. Heterosexuals are notorious for assigning themselves and one another rigid, stereotyped sex roles. Why must you cling to such unhealthy role-playing? I don't. Nature does that, and some people try to war against it.
16. With the sexually segregated living conditions of military life, isn’t heterosexuality incompatible with military service? I'm in the military, and I don't see any kind of incompatibility. What is incompatible about it?
17. How can you enjoy an emotionally fulfilling experience with a person of the other sex when there are such vast differences between you? How can a man know what pleases a woman sexually or vice-versa? The contrast is what makes it beautiful, and the way God/Nature very clearly intended for it to be.
18. Shouldn’t you ask your far-out straight cohorts, like skinheads and born-agains, to keep quiet? Wouldn’t that improve your image? No, since one has nothing to do with the other.
19. Why are heterosexuals so promiscuous? The same reason why that the Kinsey Institute has reported that 60% of their case studies of homosexuals have had more than 250 sexual partners, and 28% have had more than 1,000 lifetime partners. People are often driven by their salaciousness.
20. Why do you attribute heterosexuality to so many famous lesbian and gay people? Is it to justify your own heterosexuality? What? I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question. Can you reword it please?
21. How can you hope to actualize your God-given homosexual potential if you limit yourself to exclusive, compulsive heterosexuality? Because its not God-given.
22. There seem to be very few happy heterosexuals. Is this in contrast to the grossly disproportionate amount of homosexuals that commit suicide? "It is better to shun the bait, than struggle in the snare." -Ravi Zacharias
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
are you suggesting that domestic animals have amazingly evolved higher sentience than wild animals? Homosexuality is observed in wild animals. Wild sheep, for instance.
which further suggests that it's a social and psychological mutation, unless you're suggesting that we're genetically distinct from "primitive" societies. Actually, maybe yes. Some genetic clues have been found for eating disorders. It may be that this particular gene (or set of genes) has been selected for in western society. But that's WAY out there. Cross cultural genomic analyses would need to be conducted to confirm my wild hypothesis. And we're just now working on sequencing the "individual" genomes. So we're a long way from cross cultural studies.
most lines we think exist are lines we've invented. I'm afraid not. When a wild animal exhibits exclusive homosexual behavior, we are not "drawing the line", the animal is.
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3959 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
Homosexuality is observed in wild animals. Wild sheep, for instance. yes, i'm aware. but, you're evading the discussion that animals demonstrate responses to abuse. unless you think domesticated animals have a higher level of sentience, then wild animals would also have the ability to exhibit responses to psychological trauma. of course, you'll have to differentiate between sex for sex sake and domination behavior. and good luck with that.
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tsig Member (Idle past 2939 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
"That's pretty goddamned offensive, Phat."
It's well known that the highway to hell runs right thru a man's anus. Yep, evil lurks in the dark holes of the mind so rinse your mind with the light of the lord and send money.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2672 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
yes, i'm aware. but, you're evading the discussion that animals demonstrate responses to abuse. unless you think domesticated animals have a higher level of sentience, then wild animals would also have the ability to exhibit responses to psychological trauma. No, I haven't evaded the question. I'll ask again: Do wild animals experience sex abuse? (Hint: the answer is no.) What sort of abuse do you think wild sheep experience? Loss of territory due to human encroachment? You think something of this sort leads to homosexual behavior? Edited by molbiogirl, : No reason given.
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3959 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
Do wild animals experience sex abuse? (Hint: the answer is no.) are you sure?you're really going to tell me that sexual violence has no animal precedent whatsoever? Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Nemesis Juggernaut responds to me:
quote: You mean you can't figure it out? The vagina has an acidic environment which is to kill pathogens that might enter the woman's body through the vagina. Then, when they are dead, the muscular contractions of the vaginal pathway will push them out. The vaginal environment is actively hostile to sperm and does what it can to expel them, starting with killing them outright. If it were receptive to the idea of sperm coming in, if it were truly an "entrance," then it wouldn't go out of its way to try and kill the sperm, now would it? If you're going to insist upon the anus as being "exit only," then we must necessarily conclude that the vagina is also "exit only."
quote: Indeed, it is. You seem to think that this is some sort of counter to the fact that the vaginal environment is actively hostile to sperm. Why do you think that males need to produce so many hundreds of millions of sperm? Of those hundred million that are deposited into the vagina, only about 50 make it to the egg. It's actually quite difficult to become pregnant.
quote: (*chuckle*) What do I need a proctologist for? Hmmm....could it be that I'm turning 40 next year and my father and his brother both have had prostate problems? Could it be that my mother, her identical twin sister, and my father's mother all have come down with breast cancer, which has relation to prostate cancer in men? Hmmm...could it be that I am a sex educator and it is my job to talk to the medical establishment regarding such activities? Nah, that can't possibly be why I might need a proctologist or talk to one about anal sex. It has to be because I'm gay. Hint: Straight men also engage in anal sex. The prostate is sensitive and stimulation of it can be quite pleasurable.
quote: I daresay you have never had a good blowjob, then. If you're going to be working so delicately on his penis, then I have to wonder how your partner could maintain erection. The mouth is continually filled with minor cuts and such due to the sharp teeth being there. Fellatio aggravates them.
quote: Well, you told a joke. Of course I was going to laugh. That's the common response to humorous statements.
quote: And thus, the disingenuousness arises. Obviously, if you don't have sex or engage in sexual activity that does not involve bodily contact, then you don't risk sexually transmitted disease. For one who just complained about "being mature," you seemed to have reverted to a child-like response. If you're going to have sex where a penis is involved and is going to be touched by someone else, then the most effective way to prevent transmission of sexually transmitted disease is to use a condom. That's why it has been around for over 3000 years.
quote: Incorrect. If your partner is infected, then it doesn't matter how faithful the two of you are to each other.
quote: Indeed. Nobody ever said condoms were perfect. But the way people get diseases and pregnant with condoms isn't because a couple sperm leaked out through a "microscopic pore" in the condom. Instead, the condom broke or some other method of introducing sperm-bearing fluid to the vagina happened (foreplay before the condom was put on, slippage of the condom after ejaculation from poor withdrawal, etc.) When condoms are used correctly, they prevent pregnancy almost as effectively as the Pill.
quote: No, not if used correctly. One of the common errors, and this is true for vaginal intercourse as well, is not using enough lubrication.
quote: Indeed...and we found that HIV-transmission is primarily carried out through heterosexual intercourse. Three-quarters of all cases worldwide were the result of penis-vagina sex. About another 20% are through drug use. In fact, male-male sexual intercourse is a tiny fraction of all cases of HIV transmission. Currently, it's pretty much only in the US that HIV transmission is primarily between men. The UK flipped to primarily heterosexual sex about 8 years ago.
quote: Indeed, because they were looking at gay men who don't have vaginas with which to have sex. Oral sex has a much lower risk than anal sex, yes, but there are plenty of other things to worry about with oral sex than HIV. Gonorrhea, syphillis, herpes, chlamydia, all can be transmitted orally.
quote: Indeed, and the reason it isn't called that anymore is because it has nothing to do with being gay. In fact, the overwhelming majority of cases of HIV transmission are through heterosexual sex. Should we start calling it, "Immune Deficiency in Straights," or "IDS"?
quote: One that's out of date? Yes. You are quite correct that there are diseases that can be contracted via anal sex, but the idea that only gay men contract them is simply not true. For the same reason that "AIDS" isn't called "GRID" anymore (it isn't "gay-related"), sexually transmitted diseases in the anus are not unique to gay people. And since anal sex is much more likely to be carried out by heterosexual participants, the idea that it is "gay-related" simply isn't true. That's why nobody talks about it as "gay bowel syndrome" anymore. Your definition is over 20 years old and is connected to the same ignorance regarding HIV. When the idea that the immune deficiency was connected to gays was discarded, so was "gay bowel syndrome." That's why the common meaning of the term isn't infection but rather uncontrolled prolapse...which has also been shown to be nonexistent.
quote: Huh? There's a "straight UI syndrome"? Where?
quote: Huh? You mean sex isn't one of those causes? Do you seriously not realize that the urethra is right next to the genitalia in humans? In males, the urethra is part and parcel of the penis. In women, the urethra is right next to the vagina.
quote: Irrelevant. The penis rubs against the urethra during vaginal sex.
quote: Incorrect. Just as two people who don't have HIV can have as much sex as they want and not risk passing HIV between them, twopeople who don't have any diseases can have as much anal sex as they wish. You're fixated on the act and are ignoring the actual cause of disease: Infectious agents. If the infectious agent is not present, then no act can make it appear.
quote:quote: I didn't say you were screaming. I said you were spouting hysteria. One can calmly say, "A gigantic meteor is coming. You should consider evacutating the area," and yet that's still spouting hysteria when there isn't any threat. Your claim that condoms are ineffective (and yet hypocritically admitting that they are over 90% effective in preventing pregnancy...you can't have it both ways, NJ) is naught but hysteria. Your claim that anal sex is physically traumatic and leads to no end of disease is hysteria.
quote: Indeed. That must be why I keep having to clean myself off whenever one of your posts appears on the screen. The amount of bile and invective spewed forth is amazing. That you attempt to deliver it as if you were Mary Poppins with what you think is a spoonful of sugar doesn't change the fact that you're spouting shit.
quote: Sweetie, honey, baby, pussycat, you haven't seen me upset. Believe me, when I get angry at you, you'll know. You're assuming that I'm emotionally invested in you and to put it as nicely as I can, you just aren't that important. Now, I can't stop you from taking every little thing that anybody says personally, but please try to understand that I really don't care about you. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Nemesis Juggernaut responds to brennakimi:
quote: And what makes you think he wasn't right? There are all sorts of reasons why somebody might need a proctologist, NJ. That you can't think of any beyond being a gay male doesn't mean nobody else has a reason.
quote: Incorrect. Reread my post and try again. Hint: I was responding to your complaint that the anus is filled with bacteria. I pointed out that the mouth has even more bacteria. This doesn't mean that bacteria aren't a problem. It means that simply whining about bacteria is not sufficient. There are lots of sexually transmitted diseases that are passed orally. Gonorrhea of the throat is not pleasant.
quote: Then you truly don't understand how the mouth works. The mere presence of the teeth in mouth means that you ALWAYS have cuts and tears in your mouth. Every dentist knows this. That's why sex educators say that you shouldn't brush your teeth before oral sex as the brush causes cuts and tears in your mouth.
quote: Except that isn't quite true. Hemophiliacs were getting it, too. While gay men certainly made the bulk of the cases seen early on, it became clear that what was happening was not some sort of environmental toxin or physical trauma but rather a pathogen.
quote: So why do you keep bringing up this "gay bowel syndrome" which has nothing to do with being gay?
quote: Incorrect. You were the one who brought up "gay bowel syndrome" (Message 81). I simply laughed at you for it (Message 89).
quote: And you wonder why people consider you a homophobic bigot? At any rate, that isn't true. The first cases were discovered in New York. The misidentified "Patient Zero" was a flight attendant from the East Coast.
quote: No, you're not. You're being very careful about how you're phrasing things, but you slip up. After all, YOU were the one who introduced "gay bowel syndrome."
quote: Indeed, and the medical evidence is clear: Anal sex is just as natural as any other kind of sex and just as healthy/risky.
quote: As are the vagina and mouth and the vagina and hand. But nobody seems to think oral or manual sex is "unnatural."
quote: And why is that insufficient? Be specific. It poses no more risk than any other form of sex. So if the people involved in participating in it are happy with it, why is there some reason to stop them?
quote: Huh? Didn't you just say, "if it fits, it's fine"? It quite clearly fits or people wouldn't engage in it. And it's clearly pleasurable or people wouldn't engage in it so often. You seem to think that having anal sex is akin to rape.
quote: Nice try, but you're shifting the burden of proof. You're the one who is claiming there is something wrong with it. Since it is obvious that people successfully engage in it and do so willingly, even eagerly, then it is your burden to come up with a reason why what they're doing is something other than what it is: Pleasurable sexual contact. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Nemesis Juggernaut writes:
quote: Um, hitting on you is not "seducing you to their 'lifestyle.'" When you hit on a woman, are you "seducing" them into your "lifestyle"? And speaking of "lifestyle," what is it you mean by that? Track lighting? Going to amusement parks? Your "lifestyle" is a conscious choice that you can change. Are you saying your heterosexual "lifestyle" is capable of being changed? That seems to contradict your claims that you didn't decide to be straight and that you couldn't change it.
quote: But you seem to be incapable of just keeping quiet about it. You felt compelled to tell us of your sexual exploits just recently. You are clearly obsessed with your penis and cannot keep quiet about it. Why can't you just keep it to yourself and let the rest of us moral people live ourlives without having you shove your sexuality down our throats? I mean, you actively sought out sex in a public place!
quote: No.
quote: What does this have to do with gay people? The question put to you was that since the disproportionate majority of child molesters are heterosexual men. Do you consider it safe to expose children to heterosexual male teachers, pediatricians, priests, or scoutmasters? Gay males are exceedingly rare among child molesters, even rarer than female molesters. If you're truly concerned about the welfare of your child, wouldn't the logical thing be to search for gay people?
quote: That ignores the question. Given all the societal support for marriage, why is the divorce rate spiraling? You seem to be saying that the societal support for marriage is what is causing divorce. Are you saying that trying to help people stay together is what drives them apart?
quote: You're avoiding the question. Take a look around you and see all the sexual imagery that exists, all of it heterosexual. Why do heterosexuals place so much emphasis on sex?
quote: Actually, there is some evidence suggesting that.
quote: But you seem to have confused normal behaviour as "seducing" you. Are you sure you understand what normal behaviour is?
quote: So why do same-sex couples stay together longer than mixed-sex couples? And where is your evidence that "god/nature" was involved or "intended" anything?
quote: And yet, you seem to think that gay people need to do something about their outliers. Notice, in the very next question, you started ranting about promiscuous gay people. The question isn't about gay people, NJ. It's about straights. With the horrendous promiscuity rates of straight people, shouldn't you, as a straight person, do something about it?
quote: No. It is quite clear and straightforward. There are many famous people out there who are/were gay. And yet, heterosexuals seem to insist that they couldn't have been and declare them to be straight. Why is this? Is it an attempt to justify your own heterosexuality?
quote: But you just said in question one that your sexuality was god-given. Now you're saying it isn't. So which is it? Is your sexuality from god or is it a choice? And if you choose it, what would it take for you to change?
quote: This isn't about gay people, NJ. Try to stick to the question. There seem to be very few happy heterosexuals. Techniques have been developed that might enable you to change if you really want to. After all, you never deliberately chose to be a heterosexual, did you? Have you considered aversion therapy or Heterosexuals Anonymous? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 9.2 |
do you dispute this? cause that's cute. Hell, yeah, I dispute it. Because by your own links the number one group of "sexual abuse" is 12-16 year old boys groping 12-16 year old girls. Now, that's bad, but it isn't equivalent to the priest bum-raping the 8-year old choir boy.
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