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Author
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Topic: Vick Finds Jesus
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Message 3 of 50 (418528)
08-28-2007 7:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Grizz
08-28-2007 5:34 PM
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What in the world was that boy thinking?
In the press conference following his plea hearing, Michael vick has stated his legal woes over the dogfighting charges have led him to Jesus. I'm all for people changing their ways for the better, but actions speak louder than words. I guess we'll just see what we see about his "conversion." By his fruits we will recognize him.
Hmmm, are people really that naive? You would think his attorneys would be more a little more subtle when trying to reform his image. Well, the Defense doesn't have a defense because of the enormous amount of evidence indicting their client. The obligatory response is to plea and then play the sympathy card in hopes that it will reduce his sentence.
As far as Vick being allowed to play again, I am all for it, on one condition - the first time he loses a game he will be doused with water and electrocuted. Its truly mystifying to think a figure as prominent as Vick would be so foolish as to think that something like this would never reach the ear of the public.
"God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners." -Sren Kierkegaard
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Grizz, posted 08-28-2007 5:34 PM | | Grizz has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 4 by Omnivorous, posted 08-28-2007 10:01 PM | | Hyroglyphx has replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Message 5 of 50 (418553)
08-28-2007 11:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 4 by Omnivorous
08-28-2007 10:01 PM
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Re: What in the world was that boy thinking?
quote:
What in the world was that boy thinking?
Boy? What's wrong with saying that??? If it was a female and I said, what in the world was that girl thinking, would you be as incredulous?
Maybe right now he's thinking they sure don't treat uppity black quarterbacks the same way they do poor white crackers when they get caught runnin' dogfights. What!?!? Are they making an example of him because he's famous? Yes. Is that right to prosecute someone more harshly because they are well-known to serve as a deterrent to others? Yeah. But come on, Omni. You can't really be serious that you think they are giving such publicity only because he's black!
Of course, he didn't cause any human deaths, unlike that Bush boy. That Bush boy even laughs at death row conversions. Conversions don't count after you get caught--unless you're an evangelical preacher. Omni, reserve the soapbox for what we're actually dealing with. Can I assume that you are defending Vick or are you merely questioning the integrity of the prosecution? Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : typo
"God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners." -Sren Kierkegaard
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by Omnivorous, posted 08-28-2007 10:01 PM | | Omnivorous has replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Message 9 of 50 (418591)
08-29-2007 7:44 AM
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Reply to: Message 6 by Buzsaw
08-29-2007 12:28 AM
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Re: Many Professions Genuine Also
Jim Dobson recently interviewed Son of Sam David Berkowitz who's been a long time Christian in prison since receiving Christ Jesus. To the surprise of many, Berkowitz appears truly genuine in his conversion.
What Michael Vick needs now is our prayers, that he will walk the talk Yes, and I have now done just that. I guess what irks people is that they conveniently use this as a scapegoat. And I understand where they are coming from, especially in light of the Parable of the Sower. But I suppose that you're right that we should not sit here and judge the man only to come to faulty conclusions about his alleged conversion. Afterall, some people in a bad spot really do end up coming to Jesus without falling by the wayside after the tragedy subsides.
"God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners." -Sren Kierkegaard
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 6 by Buzsaw, posted 08-29-2007 12:28 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Message 10 of 50 (418593)
08-29-2007 7:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 8 by Shtop
08-29-2007 3:19 AM
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Re: What in the world was that boy thinking?
Of course not NJ, we all know what you meant by "Boy". Apparently not if this big of deal is being made of it. I want to know what clandestine meaning you think exists.
Reminds me of when I first told my mum I was an atheist: She said "When you're lying on your death bed, you'll change your mind". But there really are death bed conversions. Its a strange thing; nobody runs to Nietzsche on their deathbed. They run to Jesus. Now, does that mean everyone is sincere? Absolutely not. Does it mean everyone who says it is being honest. No. But there are some.
"God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners." -Sren Kierkegaard
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by Shtop, posted 08-29-2007 3:19 AM | | Shtop has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 08-29-2007 11:26 AM | | Hyroglyphx has replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Re: Many Professions Genuine Also
quote:
To the surprise of many, Berkowitz appears truly genuine in his conversion.
that's nice. he didn't kill people because he wasn't saved. he killed people because he's a sociopath. finding jesus doesn't change that. Berkowitz may very well be a sociopath. It is possible that somebody could be disingenuous about the whole thing, because characteristics about socipathy include being totally kind one moment, then stabbing you in the neck in the next moment. But something else about sociopaths is that they are so totally self-absorbed. Could a true sociopath keep this charade up this long while in jail? I doubt it. I've met quite a few sociopaths over the years.
i'm sure paris hilton really found god, too. I just defer to the wisdom of Jesus on this. " By their fruits you will recognize them." If she's being genuine, it will show. If she is disingenuous, that'll show too.
"God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners." -Sren Kierkegaard
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Message 19 of 50 (418664)
08-29-2007 6:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 13 by crashfrog
08-29-2007 11:26 AM
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Re: What in the world was that boy thinking?
You're old enough to have lived through the civil rights era, aren't you? No. I was born in 1977. But I guess even supposing I was born in 1967, I still would have been too young to comprehend the controversy.
Surely you can't be ignorant of the fact that "boy" was a racist diminutive used in reference to black men of any age. No, I have never heard the use of "boy" as being some sort of racial epithet.
When you use "boy" to refer to a black man, that's a legacy of racism. Did you mean to be racist? Honestly, I have no idea. But for God's sake, NJ, learn to think about what you're saying before you mouth off, ok? Dude, how could I have ever known something as innocuous as saying "boy", (which to me, is on par with "dude", "guy," "man", etc) would ever contain such overtones? Supposing it was, say, Tom Brady arrested for animal cruelty, I would have said the same thing. I promise you, with the utmost sincerity, that I did NOT mean it any kind of derogatory way. But after reading your excerpt I am seeing in hindsight how it makes sense. After reading it I am envisioning a scene in Roots where Kunte was asked by his slavemaster, "What's your name, boy?" He repeats it over and over because Kunte is defying him to take an English name. But I never equated it with being an inherently racist remark. So, with that-- to Omni, you, and Vick, I apologize for it. I truly had no idea.
quote:
But there really are death bed conversions.
Duh. Religion thrives on exploiting people's fears of death and grief for lost loved ones. It doesn't say much for your side when the only people you can seem to convince are the ones who, by definition, aren't thinking clearly. I don't know how many deathbed conversions there would be with Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, or any other religion. But exploitation doesn't seem to fit the bill. Its one of those things that some people, at the end of themselves, try as sort of a "last resort." But I don't think that accounts for people who actually have had a moment with God.
"God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners." -Sren Kierkegaard
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 08-29-2007 11:26 AM | | crashfrog has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 08-29-2007 7:41 PM | | Hyroglyphx has replied | | | Message 22 by Taz, posted 08-29-2007 8:02 PM | | Hyroglyphx has replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Re: Many Professions Genuine Also
do you really think that something other than being a nasty bastard made him kill people? Not really... But at the same time, don't you believe that people, even if few and far between, can amend their ways?
"God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners." -Sren Kierkegaard
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Message 24 of 50 (418695)
08-29-2007 9:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 21 by crashfrog
08-29-2007 7:41 PM
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Re: What in the world was that boy thinking?
Oh, I was under the impression you were much older. Nah... just turned 30 in June.
I'm a white guy from whiter-than-white rural Minnesota, and even I knew about it. I can't for the life of me imagine how you could live your whole life and not know that. I am aware that anyone could use the word boy in a condescending way, but only understood it in a way that would denigrate someone's intelligence or calling into question their level of maturity-- as in calling them a boy, instead of a man. But as far as it being considered a racial slur, I never got the memo.
Alright, alright. I can see that you were truly ignorant and that you've apologized. I guess it was just one of those racist-appearing things that white folks like ourselves occasionally blunder into. I apologize for the assumption of bad faith on your part. Eh, no worries... Since I can see how easy it was to misconstrue that, I felt that a prompt apology and a clearing of the air was necessary.
Well, it wouldn't, but to me when you say "people who actually have a moment with God" you're talking about a sample size of zero. I don't think the sample size is so much as zero as it is unproveable. And this is really why when someone dies, and a person asks me if I think they are in hell, I usually don't make an assumption. The reason is, I just have no way of knowing.
I just got back from my wife's grandfather's funeral, which was last saturday, and since he died slowly, there was plenty of time for God-bother- from the hospice nurse quoting Bible stories to the old-timey religion of his Masonic memorial service. And it really brought home to me what a scam all that stuff is. I don't think I understand what you are saying here.
There was also plenty of time for me to observe the best that human people have to offer - a family who drew strength from their love for one another, a family patriarch whose whole life was the nurturing and development of his family. A man, indeed, who loved his wife especially, and so much that he literally killed himself taking care of her. (He was 96, and she'd had a few strokes and was in a bad way last year. The strain on him as primary caregiver - they were fiercely proud and independent - was responsible for his failed health.) He sounds like a wonderful man. I hope the legacy he brought to the world continues through the lives he's touched.
You can tell which I was more interested in. It remains astounding to me that with such strength and love on display, anybody at all would be interested in fairy stories about heaven and Jesus. That maudlin sentiment pales significantly beside the vastness of human love that I observed that week. But it is in those rich details where I see Him most. I see the embodiment of what He is, which is why He said that by doing this or that for others, you do it for Me. And also like Mr. Zacharias has said. He said that he has learned more about love, theology, and philosophy in those quiet moments with his family, than in all of the books he's poured over through the years.
"God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners." -Sren Kierkegaard
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 08-29-2007 7:41 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 30 by crashfrog, posted 08-30-2007 9:18 AM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Message 25 of 50 (418699)
08-29-2007 9:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 22 by Taz
08-29-2007 8:02 PM
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Re: What in the world was that boy thinking?
Duplicate posting. See #26 below. Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Deleted content of duplicate posting.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by Taz, posted 08-29-2007 8:02 PM | | Taz has not replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Message 26 of 50 (418701)
08-29-2007 9:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 22 by Taz
08-29-2007 8:02 PM
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Re: What in the world was that boy thinking?
While I was still a christian, I was taught many times that words have much power. After all, god did say let there be light for light to exist. We can go through the entire old and new testaments to find practically an unlimited number of examples of how the power of word is stressed. No need to. I fully agree. The sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me, adage may be good in the sense that everyone should come to expect taunts in their life. And we should also turn the other cheek at such taunts, absolutely. But words really do carry a lot of weight behind them. But as you said, the Bible is rife with caveats about the tongue. "For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned." -Matthew 12:35-37 "When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts." -James 3:3-5
Nem_jug, we are so surprised by your use of the word "boy", innocent or not, mostly because in life you are a figure of authority. People would have probably reacted less harshly if you were someone else. After all, we live in a society where people are allowed to stay in their blissful ignorance of their own history. But being a cop, you should really educate yourself of this kind of stuff to avoid complications. People look up to you. Well, I'm not really a "cop," per say. I was, but not so much now. And my authority only really extends to USC Title 14, subsection 89a. Plus I mostly deal with foreign sailors looking to clear the port of Los Angeles. For instance, today I worked with a Greek and Filipino crew. Yesterday, with an Ecuadorian crew. And I live by the adage an old boss of mine said. Polite. Tactful. Courteous. I understand what you're saying, but I don't see anytime where I would call somebody a boy in the course of my duties.
The word "nigger" was used by everyone to demean a particular group of people. The word "boy" was particularly used by figures of authority like policemen, public servants, and even the local store clerk to demean a particular group of people. Other examples are "gal" and "broad". Yeah, I see what you mean.
Anyway, just be careful next time. The word coming from you has a lot more meaning and insult than if it is coming from me. Why? Because I'm considered a bigot in general, and therefore, you've come to expect it? 
"God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners." -Sren Kierkegaard
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by Taz, posted 08-29-2007 8:02 PM | | Taz has not replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Re: Not a racist thing (and drop the "boy" discussion)
The way to prove different treatment for blacks v. whites accused of similar crimes is to look at the historical record: it is stark and clear. The notion that only finding an exact parallel in terms of prominence and wealth--but white--would disprove your notion that America suddenly became race blind is absurd. I think you could make a better case that the media treats the famous more harshly and gives them more attention than the average joe, more so than you could make the argument that they are only seeking prosecution because he's black. You ask if whites who engage in similar crimes are prosecuted with the same intensity. I think they are. The difference is, you don't hear about it nearly as much because they aren't famous. Its the same with any blacks who commit animal cruelty. You don't hear about it as much because they just so happen to not be famous. So, couldn't you make a stronger argument against the treatment of celebrities rather than the treatment of blacks in America?
Indeed, the presence of prominence and wealth is statistically associated with better outcomes for the accused. Vick is prominent and wealthy. Should he get a pass because of that or because of the color of his skin? Lets just allow the courts to treat the case with equity. I would say he should get no pass at all. He should be treated in accordance with measure of his character and the nature of the crime and nothing else.
n_j used classic racist speech; I called him on it; he replied, and I responded. I'm glad to hear he apologized, but that wasn't in any reply to me--I responded to what he had to say directly to my objection. You have a problem with that? Omni, but I did apologize to you. I specifically apologized to you, Crashfrog, and Vick. I honestly had no idea that the term would have been taken so harshly. Had no ill-intent, so perhaps I was not obligated to apologize. But I thought it best to quell any resentment you might have for me over the remark as a gesture of good faith. I mean, something has got to give because I can't take the word back. It was said and there is nothing I can do except to apologize. Aside from gouging my eyes out or flogging myself incessantly, I'm not sure what more you would like for me to do. I'm trying to make amends here.
Do you mean to instruct us to no longer address the racial aspect of this controversy? Why? Can I ask why you think such a controversy even exists to begin with though? What has happened that led you to believe that Michael is being harassed because of his color, rather than, say, drowning and electrocuting man's best friend? It seems there is a bit of a dichotomy for you at the present time. If Vick is prosecuted, then you might end up saying it was only because he's black. But if he is let go, then your reprehension for his crime is nullified. Should Vick get a pass just in case some juror has nefarious purposes in mind for him, even without a shred of corroboration to even assert it? Or should he stand trial for his crime and let justice prevail?
"God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners." -Sren Kierkegaard
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 39 by Omnivorous, posted 08-30-2007 6:44 PM | | Omnivorous has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 45 by Omnivorous, posted 08-30-2007 9:12 PM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Re: What in the world was that boy thinking?
I see two options: one, you truly are so racially insensitive and historically ignorant that calling an adult black male boy was a naive act; two, you are not that ignorant, and while it was not a conscious act of bigotry, as you say, it did reflect an unthinking bias. Well, Omni, I doubt that I can be considered so ignorant as not to know anything about racism in America. I was simply ignorant of this one terminology. As for the latent Freudian slip theory, I don't see that as a credible possibility.
I've scrolled back through a lot of your posts. I couldn't find any examples of you calling an adult white man, boy. You see? Probably because I used it playfully, like a wife half-jokingly saying about her husband, Oh, that boy is crazy! Its interchangeable. It doesn't denote a specific race. It doesn't even mean she is trying to say he is immature. Besides, I think the tone of ones voice gives indication to the motivation used. Obviously the internet is devoid of those kinds of subtle intricacies, so its often that people misinterpret intent. For instance, the other day, Taz said something about soldiers. He says he was being jocular, but I misunderstood his intentions. I think we forget that body language and vocal inflections are sometimes more critical than what is actually being said.
Referring to "that Bush boy" was a relevant example. I thought you might find the notion of calling the President boy as jarring as African Americans find obnoxious the same term applied to adult men. Not really, but your point is duly noted.
dogfighting has been an underground sport in the south for a long, long time. I doubt very much that we could find an example of a white man being so raked over the coals on the same charges. I'm sure we can. I just ran a search engine, and unfortunately the internet is inundated by articles concerning Vick or the articles give no indication of the indicted's race. I'll keep looking though.
While African Americans dominate many professional sports, the position of quarterback (like manager in baseball and, until recently, coach in basketball) is still reserved almost entirely for white athletes. Do you think that was by design? Is it racist if most running backs or wide receivers are black? Its just what ended up, not some grand conspiracy against whites or blacks it seems to me.
I think the overwhelming reaction from the public and the prosecution alike stems from a sense of outrage at this behavior by a black man who has been so favored. But I don't understand why do you insist that the words "black" or "man" factor in to their outrage. Is it really so impossible that they are simply disgusted that, anyone, of any race, color, or creed would do something as inhumane as dog fighting?
That notion itself is racist: it's the "I'm don't want to sound like a racist, but he should be more careful about fulfilling his people's sterotypes" type of bigotry writ societally large. I've only heard one instance of something along these lines. Interestingly enough it came from a black disc jockey here in LA. He said, something to the affect of, "I guess you can take the Vick out the ghetto, but can't take the ghetto out of Vick."
His prosecution and public condemnation should have proceeded like those of any other person convicted of the same crime. That's not what I see. Is it possible that you're seeing what you want to see? It seems abundantly obvious to me that the over-coverage of the case has to do more with his stature in the eye of the public than it has to do with the pigmentation of his skin. I think they also feel how I feel. They are probably thinking, as I have, " Why would you be so foolish to jeopardize your entire career to fight dogs? And " Did you really think someone has prominent as yourself could really keep something of this magnitude clandestine?" This is actually what prompted me to ask, "What in the world was that boy thinking?"
"God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners." -Sren Kierkegaard
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 37 by Omnivorous, posted 08-30-2007 5:49 PM | | Omnivorous has not replied |
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member
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Re: Please take this to a better place (Don't reply in this topic!)
Hey Moose, I did not see this message. You posted it while I was in the middle of my reply to Omni. So please don't think that I was usurping your warning. I was not good, sir.  If you feel that it is OT, feel free to either hide the content, delete it, or move it to another thread. I would do it myself but I want to make certain that you truly won't allow it seeing that I invested some time and thought into my last post. I'd really hate to see it get removed. But again, if you feel that it is inappropriate then I won't stand in your way of moderating. Thanks
"God creates out of nothing. Wonderful you say. Yes, to be sure, but he does what is still more wonderful: he makes saints out of sinners." -Sren Kierkegaard
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