The First Questions In The Bible

The process of differentiation between good and evil without immortality, or immortality without the process of differentiation?Take this w/ a grain of salt...Elohim didn’t ever even imply He would kill Adam and Eve. Just that He was sure they would die if they did what He advised against. Elohim understands separation from His absolute wisdom leads to corruption which leads to death.Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, or, created possessing God’s absolute knowledge instinctually without need for a process of differentiation. They had the egg before the chicken. Divinity of sorts. They were created in Elohim’s image, who seems to have all of the differences worked out; that is, God has finished the process of differentiation between good and evil and He resides in that wisdom . the absolutes of good. God seperated the light from the dark using the absolutes of good. Elohim originally created us with this wisdom. We resided in it with Him. Elohim cannot reside outside of this wisdom. Nobody without it can reside with Him.The tree of knowledge offered the process of differentiation between good and evil. A separation from God's wisdom. In other words, Adam and Eve had a choice of the self-process of differentiation between good and evil without immortality, or immortality with God’s absolute wisdom instinctually. The self-process of differentiation between good and evil immediately started causing people to kill each other . (ex. jealousy, murder, war, blah, blah, blah . see Cain and Abel).Hence, the self-process of differentiation between good and evil leads to bodily death. It also leads to "spiritual death", or absence of God's wisdom that God and we resided in together. God didn’t support the tree of knowledge of good and evil because He knew the process that ensued would lead to death (corruption) and separation from the tree of life (God's absolute wisdom).Just some thoughts...

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

I think I agree with you.
The spiritual death occured when we removed ourselves from God's absolute wisdom...Elohim originally created us with this wisdom. We resided in it with Him. We were alive with God spiritually. Elohim cannot reside outside of this wisdom. Nobody without it can reside with Him.
I see an inference to a physical and spiritual death in Genesis.These manuscripts were copied carefully throughout centuries. Very few mistakes were made I would think.Elohim has no inclination to lying.Elohim's nature and character is continually misrepresented by Moses, who SAW God( ex. Numbers 20:8-12...EVC link...message 41)...how much more will it be with anyone else?

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

I'll be the first to tell you I'm a dreamer.
Nonetheless, consider . Spiritual death is not printed in the story anywhere literally, yet, the story itself hints at spiritual death to me completely. It could be compared to a parable of sorts. Elohim often conveyed insight through parable, even though they confused many people. Seems correlative here.Why would the Tree of Life be the very reason Elohim becomes concerned and restricts access to the Garden? I don’t understand.If God knew the Tree of Life granted immortality like He says it does, yet He could care less if they ate from it originally . Immortality combined with the inability to differentiate good from evil seems to be His reasoning for concern and restricted access.I am sorry if I offend you, I am not religion savvy at all.

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

Where is there an example of God leaving the Garden? The snake that spoke seems to represent the Tree of Knowledge...
Elohim supports consumption of the fruit of the Tree of Life. He seems to give it representation through His support.

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

I firmly support Elohim said this.
It would seem the idea of someone who did not now the difference between good and evil living forever concerned God. Apparently this notion didn't correspond with His wisdom of good. Adam and Eve still differ from Him.
In Elohim’s wisdom He knows what is good. Elohim establishes boundaries by His wisdom of good. Adam and Eve began to learn the differentiation between good and evil. This makes them more like God, yet very different, as Elohim is not in this process of differentiation from the text... The tree of knowledge offered the process of differentiation between good and evil for one”s self. A separation or removal from God's wisdom to one's own. In other words, Adam and Eve had a choice of immortality with God’s advice or the process of differentiation between good and evil for one's self without immortality.It would seem Elohim cannot go through the process of differentiation between good and evil for one”s self. Elohim's omnipotence lends to the notion that He is not in any process of differentiation. His wisdom of good suggests He already has...Adam gave life to death and the process of differentiation of knowledge of good and evil for one's self through deception. Eve gave Adam the fruit of the tree of knowledge, but she did not tell him what it was. If she did he wouldn't have eaten it. Adam had God's advice (the wisdom of good), but his crystal ball was broken.
Separation ensued. Edited by Bailey, : i missed you ringo

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

You don't usually typically see the inference literally in a parable (much less a verse). That's what makes it a parable. The Tree of Life was inside the garden where God told them they could eat freely of any tree with only one exception.The Tree of Life would cause them to be immortal in turn making them more like God. God was OK with this from the text.Are you suggesting God was just beginning the process of differentiation between good and evil for one”s self as Adam and Eve were?
Please provide support for your assertion.

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

Sorry. When i was referring to "one's self", I was referring to Adam and Eve. Any ability to differentiate is created by a process of experience. Empty speculation. Please show me the verse that supports the assertion Adam and Eve immediately obtained the ability to differentiate good and evil.
They're children killing one another eight verses after they were restricted from the Garden seems to contradict your claim.
Please show where Adam, Eve, Cain, or Abel knew whether their actions were wrong. Please, by all means, provide me the verse that shows Eve specified to Adam that this was the "forbidden" fruit from the tree of knowledge. In Bible Study, kindly stick to what the Bible says. Don't make it up as you go along. No particular reason.

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

I agree it makes no sense.
Adam had become like God in what way?
Adam and Eve were just beginning the process of differentiation between good and evil.
You seem to suggest God was just beginning the process of differentiation between good and evil also, and He was afraid of Adam and Eve doing this too?
Please provide biblical support for your assertion or clarify your veiw. In Bible Study, kindly stick to what the Bible says. Don't make it up as you go along. Empty speculation.
Look, you are of course free to make up any fairytales you want, but this is in the Bible Study section.
The Tree of Life that would cause them to be immortal in turn making them more like God was inside the garden where God told them they could eat freely of any tree with only one exception, the tree of knowledge.Why would the Tree of Life be the very reason Elohim becomes concerned and restricts access to the Garden? I don’t understand.If God knew the Tree of Life granted immortality like He says it does, yet He could care less if they ate from it originally . Immortality combined with the inability to differentiate good from evil seems to be His reasoning for concern and restricted access. You stated this about God's experience in the Garden.
Please provide the verse that tells of God leaving the Garden.
Thanks.

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

Edited by Bailey, : clarificationEdited by Bailey, : punct.

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

Jar, your quite off the topic regardless, but for the sake of debate... Baseless comment.
I see where Adam and Eve knew they were naked and I'm not disputing whether or not they were.
Are you inferring the ability to identify you are not wearing clothes somehow proves the capacity to tell what is good from what is evil on a consistent basis?
When I am faced with confusion on what is good and evil being naked does not help me differentiate. Contrary, it makes me more confused sometimes.
I'm naked in the shower every morning.
Does God consider this sin?
Now your asserting that it is evil to be naked.
Please show me a verse any where in the Bible where it is stated that it is evil to be naked.
Keep in mind we were created in the image of God and we were created naked.
Please show me the verse that supports the assertion Adam and Eve immediately obtained the capacity to differentiate good and evil consistently. I agree the Garden is just a small part of the world, and Adam is it's gardener.
That is not a point of debate here. It may or may not have been Elohim's dwelling place...that is not addressed here.
Please provide a verse where God leaves the Garden or refrain from making non-bible based assumptions. You keep saying that. Yet you run away from the fact that Adam and Eve nor their children could differeniate between good and evil consistently. They had just begun learning the difference. They're children killing one another eight verses after they were restricted from the Garden seems to contradict your claim.
Please show anywhere Adam, Eve, Cain, or Abel knew whether their actions were wrong.Debate in good faith. Address the issue or drop your claims about having the capacity to differentiate good from evil, nakedness being evil or helping differentiate good from evil, or God leaving the garden.I still love you man.

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

From the text, there is no basis to consider they were immortal upon creation. There is basis to consider they could make a choice that led to death. The choice they made led to a murder eight verses after they were restricted from the Garden.

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

We agree on these ideas. These verses somehow assert your position that the knowledge of good and evil causes someone to show moral sense and remorse?
Contrary it seems. According to your logic, "Cain supposedly inherited moral sense", yet he did not perceive killing his own brother as immoral. Nor was he remorseful for the actual murder.What does Adam and Eve being ashamed of their private bits, making aprons to protect their bits from shrubbery, and wanting privacy because they're naked have to do with the ability to know good from evil. I prefer clothing; how does that relate to my ability to know good from evil? Please show me any where in the Bible where it declares the ability to know good from evil is established by the desire for privacy or making aprons. I have not seen this in Scripture.You suggest Cain had the ability to know good from evil and showed moral sense by killing his brother. Unless the commandment Moses was given in Exodus 20:13 declaring "You shall not murder" is a misprint you are 180 degrees away from what the Bible actually says.Actually read Genesis 4:13. Cain tells Elohim his punishment is to harsh of a sentence for him to handle. You consider that showing remorse? If anything Cain felt shame because he was convicted and punished by God, not because he had the ability to know good from evil. That would be a speculation that's within the parameters of the story.Please provide the verse that tells of Adam, Eve, Cain or Abel having remorse. Sure, Adam & Eve wanted some privacy but they never showed remorse. Cain felt no remorse for the murder he committed. Cain felt burden from his punishment according to Genesis 4:13. Genesis 4:14 simply reinforces what Jesus said. Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.I might not be a "Christian", but I am literate.
Again, I am sorry if I offend you, I am not religion savvy at all.

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

I see where it says "their eyes were opened" immediately after they ate the fruit. I'm not debating they ate it. What I would like to know is how you connect being perceived naked to being good...or evil for that matter? If there is a declaration whether it is good or bad to be naked in your Bible by all means quote the verses. Otherwise, it's off topic. Someone actually disagrees that the ability to differentiate things (ex. "good from evil") is honed by a process of experience?Edited by Bailey, : punct.

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

I love you Ringo.
What does any of this have to do with any of the first questions ever asked in the Bible, if it's significant that the serpent was allowed to ask the first question, whether or not we were meant to question God from the very first day, or whether the entire scenario meant to happen?Edited by Bailey, : aditional comment

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

You're missing the point of debate. I'll try to go slow. If you can't come up with a value we will agree to disagree.
Here is an example...God saw that the light was good, God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good, the land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good....Anything like this will work probably. Now let's put your bible math into perspective...??? = what"Their eyes were opened" or "they were naked" + ??? = Adam and Eve learned something
or...
"Their eyes were opened" or "they were naked" + ??? = the difference between good and evilAdam and Eve learned something = the difference between good and evil...these two statements are equivalentWhat is the value of the ???? You cannot learn with out this value (unless you're magic).Yet, I you asked how being perceived naked was connected to being good...or evil for that matter?
And you saidNow, if there is no suggested connection between a point of relativity to nakedness being good or evil relating to being perceived naked or their eyes being opened...then why would you claim Adam and Eve learned something?
They couldn't have learned anything without a basis for what was good or evil.
In other words, what is your value for a basis of what was good or evil.
If there is a declaration whether to be naked, or have your "eyes opened" is good or bad in your Bible by all means quote the verses. Otherwise, it's off topic.??? = basis for good and evil"Their eyes were opened" or "they were naked" + basis for good and evil = Adam and Eve learned something
or...
"Their eyes were opened" or "they were naked" + basis for good and evil = the difference between good and evilI'm sorry your magical equation does not align with logic or Scripture.
You seem to be in quite a pickle. I never stated there was a "process of experience" in the Adam and Eve story. I simply stated the obvious way Adam, Eve, or anyone with the task of telling what is good from evil would acheive the difference between the two as oppsed to your magical formula...the ability to differentiate good and evil is not magical, but rather honed through experiences. Yes it is true that through God all things were made; without God nothing was made that has been made...I could have told you that. Edited by Bailey, : punct.

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Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary