Surrendering to Jesus/God is Not Biblical

Its not like that. Its more like voluntarily submitting to the right Spirit or else you-will-fry-yourself-by-choosing-the-other-spirit.

Jesus said, "Follow me and I will make you fishers of men," not, "Follow me or else I'll turn you over to the enemy."

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If you follow someone else's rules you have given up control. You do not, any longer, get to make up your own. What control have I given up? The freedom to do whatever I want even if it doesn't hurt anyone. The freedom to go wherever I want, to engage in certain sexual activities, to swing, to read porn, etc, etc, etc. I do not even have the freedom to think about whatever I want!

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Interesting. When I joined EvC, I had to decide whether I wanted to follow the guidelines or not. I read the guidelines and found them to be reasonable and fair. If this board was a no-holds-barred free-for-all, I wouldn't have joined.People join or leave churches/religion due to agreement/disagreement with the doctrine of the church/religion. Would someone actually join a religion or group where they disagree with everything the religion or group stands for? Doesn't God ask us to come into agreement with him?If we aren't in agreement with God and don't want to follow his commands, then we don't follow him.If we choose to follow God/Jesus we should want to follow his commands. Growing spiritually, IMO, means one doesn't want to do those things that go against God's commands.I don't see in the Bible that God said we couldn't think what we want. Jesus and Paul taught that wrong thoughts can lead to wrong actions and that we should control our thoughts, but I don't see that God ever said we couldn't think what we want.We are still in control of our actions.As I pointed out in Message 1, I am discussing the general or most common usage of the word surrender. I'm not talking about metaphorical, creative, or slag usage of the word. Self-control is something that is considered a virtue in the NT.Hard to have self-control if one gives up control.Again this discussion is looking at what God or Jesus actually said as opposed to current dogma or tradition.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Since the God/human relationship is unique, we can only understand it in human terms. In the Bible, two of the most common and best-known metaphors are the shepherd/sheep relationship and the father/son relationship.In the 23rd psalm, the shepherd is more of a leader than a commander:

• "he leadeth me beside the still waters."
• "he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake."

He is a provider and a protector:

• "I shall not want."
• "thy rod and thy staff they comfort me."

He seems more like a servant than a master:

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Psa 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

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Jesus' parable of the lost sheep is closely linked with His parable of the prodigal son. When he was down and out, the son decided to "surrender" to his father:

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Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

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but the father refused to accept his surrender:

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Luk 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
Luk 15:23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

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The jealous brother had obeyed:

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Luk 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

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but the father was more appreciative of the son who made his own decision.

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Good post, Ringo! It certainly gives one pause to think. I was also thinking of the --Sons not slaves --metaphors that Paul used to kick around....lemme find one: Looking through Pauls writings, he occasionally refers to the voluntary slavery metaphor and then he also refers to the sons metaphor.I would have to read deeper....Edited by Phat, : spelling

I feel that you *willfully* ignore parts of the Bible which speak directly about condemnation for not eventually surrendering, and I feel that this parable has more to do with the reception of sinners into heaven who HAVE surrendered. The master does accept the surrender...it is only because of the offer of such that the son was taken back. You will remember that before this surrender the son was 'dead' to the father.That was a good post Ringo, and mine is still a traditional interpretation. It is often nice to have a fresh perspective to evaluate Scripture through. That is, as long as it maintains its integrity and context.

Where do you see that in the text? Without reading your a priori interpretation into it, all I see is that the father accepted his son unconditionally. That's not a metaphor - the father thought his son was literally dead. "He was lost, and is found," ties it in directly with the parable of the lost sheep. The sheep and the son might have been dead but both returned safely. Neither the sheep nor the son were ever rejected by the shepherd or the father. Unfortunately, the traditional interpretation doesn't always do that. I'll invite you again to point them out.

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The parable of the prodigal son is about repentence and forgiveness. The relationship between the father and his sons. The prodigal son was going to ask to be taken in as hired help. You could say the prodigal son surrendered (abandoned) his old way of thinking because he realized he was wrong, but again that isn't the same as giving up control or power over one's life.I agree that there is support that Jesus wants us to surrender (abandon) our old or wrong way of thinking.
I agree that there is support that Jesus wants us to surrender (yield) to a course of action by following his commands.But I still don't see that anyone has shown support where Jesus or God requires us to surrender (give up control or power to another) our lives.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

God/Jesus would not imply something and not mean it literally. That's what the devil tells people. The bible is literal. There is more but from the original question it appears you have a genuine interest in finding out the truth. One example shoud suffice. If that does not speak of surrendering you probably just don't want to believe it. And in that case you never will.

b b, how do you get along with your church? Do they control your life or do you willingly attend services and events as you choose?Additionally, do you believe that Christians are supposed to think for themselves or do you believe that Christians need to surrender to the Bible? If so, how will we ever know what the Bible means without thinking for ourselves?

I addressed that passage in Message 32. When someone supports a presidential candidate, there is a difference between those of use who just vote and those who deal with the campaign itself. Those working in the campaign deny (lose sight of one's own interests) themselves to further their candidate. Jesus was taking a dangerous journey and in those days they probably wouldn't help his cause much by sitting at home.But those who did deny themselves and took of the cross didn't give control of their lives to Jesus and I don't see that Jesus asked them to.He had a mission and wasn't going to put it on hold for the life situations of others, such as they guy who wanted him to wait until he buried his dead.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Edited by AdminPD, : Post rendered invisible. If you must read content, use the Peek button but do not respond.

Ringo:We already belong to the enemy...Do you know what comes after the famous John 3:16 ?Well... verse 17 and 18 of course! John3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.We're already hell bound... God offers to reach down from heaven with His own Right Hand and save us from our current and deserved destiny.I think it is important to grasp that concept if we are to fully understand what Jesus was saying with His life's ministry. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This topic is not about condemnation. It's about how and why we follow Jesus. As I was saying to Phat, Jesus asked us to follow voluntarily - not from fear of condemnation.

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Ringo:If that is not the topic, then why were you talking about it?Of course it is the topic. It is one thread that is not removable from the whole.And you have gotten Jesus wrong again...He asked us to follow Him voluntarily because we should fear.Like the other emotions of consciousness, fear is a legitimate part of consciousness when used properly. This notion that fear is all evil and wrought with manipulation is pure poppycock!Without fear, I would kill myelf daily by walking into traffic, jumping off tall buildings for pure fun, etc...Now, here is what Jesus said about fear:Edited by Rob, : jar caught me... it was Luke 12:5, not Matthew. though the point still stands...