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Author Topic:   Surrendering to Jesus/God is Not Biblical
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 1 of 300 (392433)
03-31-2007 10:02 AM


I have yet to find Biblical support that Jesus or God requires us to give up control of our lives; but I do feel he taught that we are to choose a path of right behavior.
In this thread I would like to address Biblical support for the teaching of surrendering one’s life to Jesus/God.
Within large civilizations smaller groups tend to have specialized vocabulary. Those who work in various science fields have their specialized terms and phrases, the same with medical, construction, sports, clerical, religious, etc.
We run into this problem quite a bit on this board. We see it constantly with the word faith. I request that when using the words surrender, faith, belief or any other word that you are using that may have a different meaning in the religious usage than the common usage.
In one article I read concerning surrender the author stated: "Surrender" is just another word for "faith," or another word for "dependence.".
I feel that teachings like this only serve to confuse and make it harder for some individuals to understand the teachings of Jesus because those teaching may or may not be using the most common usage of the words; or they may or may not be using them correctly to express the meaning intended.
When one is told to surrender one’s life to Jesus, the word surrender implies giving up power or control of our lives.
I don’t feel that Jesus taught that we should give up control of our lives, but I do feel that he taught that we should give up wrong behavior.
In our dictionaries today, surrender also carries a meaning of yielding oneself to an emotion, influence, or course of action.
IOW, if I choose to follow the teachings of Jesus, then I will change my actions accordingly; but I’m not giving up control of my life.
Just as when we have to change our diet for health reasons. We aren’t surrendering (giving up) control of our life to the doctor, but we are choosing to surrender (yield) to the course of action the doctor recommends.
This is not a discussion about faith (any of the meanings), belief (any of the meanings), or salvation (Christian interpretation).
It is a discussion on what is written in the Bible that does or does not support that Jesus or God requires us to give up control of our lives.
Bible Study.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Replies to this message:
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Message 2 of 300 (392435)
03-31-2007 10:10 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 3 of 300 (392475)
03-31-2007 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
03-31-2007 10:02 AM


Re-Surrender
Hi PD
It is a discussion on what is written in the Bible that does or does not support that Jesus or God requires us to give up control of our lives.
I did a word check in my favorite 5 study Bibles beginning with KJV 1611 and the word surrender is not in any of them.
edit
I also could not find control in any of them.
Even where it is talking about armies they uses deliver, give, go forth, fall unto, or given.
Edited by ICANT, : add control

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 4 of 300 (392490)
03-31-2007 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ICANT
03-31-2007 7:04 PM


Re: Re-Surrender
The Greek word "paradidomi" is translated as surrender once in the NAS.
1Co 13:3
If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
But it isn't in relation to Jesus or God.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 5 of 300 (392508)
04-01-2007 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
03-31-2007 10:02 AM


quote:
Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." (KJV)
Does this verse not seem to suggest that we give up our lives? I will agree that this is a bit vague, and could range from presscribing martyrdom to subservience to merely living and dying normally but with God in mind. Perhaps another verse is needed:
quote:
James 4:7 "Submit yourselves therefore to God" (KJV)
What could be more akin to giving up control than pure submission to God?
quote:
Romans 6:13 "Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God." (KJV)
Yield yourselves to God? Sounds like giving up power and control to me.
quote:
John 3:5-6 "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." (NIV)
Doesn't this also seem to suggest we have to see our selves die, and then be reborn with God in control, rather than ourselves? Or am I reading to much into that one?
Lastly, consider the references to the sheep vs goats.
quote:
Matthew 25:32-33 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left." (NKJV)
Goats have a reputation of being more stubborn than sheep, which are submissive to their shepherd. The sheep don't really have control over where they go - they have to trust in the shepherd and follow.
So, I'm of the opinion that there is enough in the Bible to head in the direction of requiring complete surrender to God, including control and free will.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 03-31-2007 10:02 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 6 of 300 (392559)
04-01-2007 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Doddy
04-01-2007 12:35 AM


Giving Up Control
Romans 6:12 and 12:1 in context would are examples of the less common usage of the word surrender. It describes yielding ourselves to a course of action, which would be God's commands or right behavior.
Paul is talking with Gentiles and is trying to teach them that following God's commands are better for them.
Romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is...
One still has control of their lives, but chose to give up wrong behavior and do the right behavior suggested by God.
James 4:7 is an example of what we do every day. We yield to the governance or authority of our employer, governments, peers, clubs, etc. Do people feel they lack control or power over their lives because they yield to various authories? (rhetorical question)
None of the above teachings were from Jesus, so we have to remember the viewpoint from which they are presented.
In John 3, when Jesus is talking with Nicodemus, he is discussing being born again. Being born again is a Jewish concept that doesn't bring with it the idea of giving up control or power over your life. The idea implies life changes such as a Gentile converting to Judaism or a Bar Mitzvah. What I read in this account is Jesus speaking of a spiritual or mindset change. Again it is an example of choosing to yield to a course of action.
When you read Matthew 25:34-36 you see that Jesus is referring to our behavior towards others. So the King will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will separate those who are kind to others as described in verses 34-36 from those who don't. We always have the choice of how we wish to treat others. If you want to be one of the sheep, you base your actions accordingly. Just like if you want to be a part of a sports team or a club, you have to meet the requirements to participate. If you want a certain job, you have to meet the requirements. If you want to be a part of God's Kingdom you choose whether you want to me the requirements or not.
I don't see Jesus implying that we are to give up control or power over our lives.
In reality, even those who have supposedly given control of their lives to Jesus really haven't. IMO, they have simply chosen to follow his teachings.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2007 12:38 AM purpledawn has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 7 of 300 (392739)
04-02-2007 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by purpledawn
04-01-2007 10:32 AM


Re: Giving Up Control
In reality, even those who have supposedly given control of their lives to Jesus really haven't. IMO,
I like to think I have given my life over totaly to the leadership of the Holy Spirit. But the fact remains that I live in a sinful fleshly body. So many time I take control and when I do I mess up I find as long as God is in control things just work out better.
Now the bad news:
Roma 12:1 (KJS) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
1Cor 6:19 (KJS) What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Cor 6:20 (KJS) For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
1Cor 7:23 (KJS) Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
Now if you have been born again. That means that you have been bought with the blood of Jesus and the suffering he did at Calvary.
That means God own's you.
He asks that you willingly present your body as a living sacrifice, which is a very cheap price to pay for not spending eternity in Hell.
So from the moment you are born again you are not your own you belong to God because he redeamed you that is He paid for you.
Can you get by without letting God have control I guess you could because Paul tell us some will be saved so as by fire.
.
1Cor 3:15 (KJS) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by purpledawn, posted 04-01-2007 10:32 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 8 of 300 (392743)
04-02-2007 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by ICANT
04-02-2007 12:38 AM


Re: Giving Up Control
ICANT writes:
So from the moment you are born again you are not your own you belong to God because he redeamed you that is He paid for you.
Well, the concept of God buying you from Himself is supremely ludicrous....
So we have to think about what "redemption" really means.
When you pawn your gold watch, you have a chance to "redeem" it - i.e. get it back by repaying the debt. If your friend Jesus pays the debt for you and redeems your watch, it's still your watch. You never lost ownership of it.
So redemption doesn't necessarily involve a change in ownership.
Why would your friend Jesus expect you to surrender your watch to Him? If He wanted to own it, He could have just waited until your time ran out.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2007 12:38 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2007 3:23 AM ringo has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 9 of 300 (392755)
04-02-2007 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
04-02-2007 1:04 AM


Re: Giving Up Control
Hi Ringo,
Well, the concept of God buying you
Since this thread is under Bible Study are you saying the Bible does not say what I quoted.
1Cor 6:20 (KJS) For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
1Cor 7:23 (KJS) Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
Ringo I don't care if you believe the Bible or not. If you think it is a fairy tale that is fine. If you think it is an uncalled for book that is fine.
Now either the Bible says what I quoted, or it does not.
Does it state what I quoted?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 04-02-2007 1:04 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 10 of 300 (392758)
04-02-2007 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by ICANT
04-02-2007 3:23 AM


Re: Giving Up Control
ICANT writes:
Now either the Bible says what I quoted, or it does not.
I didn't question your quotes. I questioned your interpretation of them.
How about responding to my post?

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CTD
Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 11 of 300 (392767)
04-02-2007 8:14 AM


1Cor 6:20 (KJS) For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Not much interpretation is needful for this one. Your body and your spirit are God's.
God isn't redeeming a watch from a pawnshop. He's redeeming a lost soul from Hell.
It is totally contrary to scripture to claim one who has been redeemed has no obligation to serve God. I can't think of any denomination or sect that makes that claim. But I don't get out as much as I used to...
Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
The unbeliever may cry "false dichotomy!" The Christian doesn't speak arrogantly against Jesus. This is THE dichotomy. Take your pick.
purpledawn, it is a scary thing to surrender control to another, even God. But how could you call Him "Lord" if you didn't intend to serve Him? He has no intention of abusing His servants. He loves us. He who cannot lie has said
Matt 11:
[28] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
[29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Pride would have us bargain with God as with an equal. God is not a man. We are not His equal. We cannot equal His love. That is why He is the ultimate master.

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by purpledawn, posted 04-02-2007 10:37 AM CTD has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 12 of 300 (392769)
04-02-2007 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by ICANT
04-02-2007 12:38 AM


Re: Giving Up Control
quote:
Now if you have been born again. That means that you have been bought with the blood of Jesus and the suffering he did at Calvary.
I understand the practice of combining unrelated verses to create a third meaning, which is fine for sermons; but when I study what the writers in the Bible are saying I try to understand what the author was saying within the single writing.
The conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus in John 3 concerning "born again" dealt with spiritual change. A choice that one makes, not that is made for them.
In Romans, Paul is trying to teach Gentiles that following God's commands are better for them.
In 1 Corinthians, Paul uses slave analogies to teach right behavior. He is addressing specific circumstances and questions addressed to him.
Real slavery is involuntary servitude, subjecting one person to the power of another. Most slaves were considered chattel, that is, property that can be bought or sold.
I feel that Paul was being methaphorical and not literal. I say that because his earlier writing to the Galations concerning the law Paul writes:
Galations 4
What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, althoughhe owns the whole estate. He is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world. But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. ...So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.
So while Christians are not literal slaves with no control or power over their lives, following the teachings of Jesus does mean that Christians yield to the course of action taught by Jesus.
Paul is dealing with people who have converted to Christianity, but haven't got all their ducks in a row when it comes to behavior (1 Corinthians 3). He uses language that will make an impact on his audience.
Paul has shown several times in his letters that he is a supporter of self-control.
I see how people can pull verses out to create the teaching of surrender (give up control), but I still don't see that surrender (give up control) was truly part of Jesus' teachings or required by God. Paul is not Jesus or God.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 13 of 300 (392785)
04-02-2007 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by CTD
04-02-2007 8:14 AM


Light Burden
quote:
...it is a scary thing to surrender control to another, even God. But how could you call Him "Lord" if you didn't intend to serve Him? He has no intention of abusing His servants. He loves us. He who cannot lie has said
The point is that neither Jesus no God asks that we give up control of our lives. They do ask that we choose to follow God's commands because it is a better way of life, which is what Jesus is referring to in Matthew 11. Following Jesus and learning from him is an easier path to following God's commands than that of the Jewish teachers with their fence around the Torah. His way does not put unneccesary burdens on the followers.
Now there are things in life we can't control, such as the weather and other people; but we can control our response to those things.
IMO, the psychology behind the teaching of "giving control to God" is essentially saying to accept that there are things we cannot change. We can only change the things we have the power to change. (que sera sera)

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by CTD, posted 04-02-2007 8:14 AM CTD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by truthlover, posted 04-02-2007 7:45 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 15 by anastasia, posted 04-02-2007 8:14 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 23 by CTD, posted 04-03-2007 7:34 AM purpledawn has replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 14 of 300 (392881)
04-02-2007 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by purpledawn
04-02-2007 10:37 AM


Re: Light Burden
They do ask that we choose to follow God's commands because it is a better way of life, which is what Jesus is referring to in Matthew 11.
Jesus says way more than to obey God just because it's a better way of life. He threatens judgment repeatedly. Those who do evil will resurrect to judgment, he said. Cut off your hand if it makes you stumble, he says, because it's better to enter life maimed than to have both soul and body destroyed in Gehenna. The goats of the judgment of Matt 25 are told they'll be subject to eternal punishment.
The point is that neither Jesus no God asks that we give up control of our lives.
What does that mean? Doesn't following someone else's commands mean giving up control in some sense? Especially if there's punishments for not following those commands?
Jesus talked about losing your soul. Only those who lose their soul for his sake will find it, he says. Those who seek to save it will lose it. "Deny yourself, take up your cross daily, and come after me," he says, or you can't be his disciple. He calls himself their Lord, and he most certainly expects them to obey his commands.
I don't know what more loss of control you could be looking for. He himself said he didn't do anything except what he saw his Father doing. He suggested we follow his example, and he promised to send the Spirit of God as the "exhorter/encourager" (which is what parakletos really means) so we'd be able to.

This message is a reply to:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 15 of 300 (392893)
04-02-2007 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by purpledawn
04-02-2007 10:37 AM


Looks good on paper, but how about in Action?
PD, I have to ask.
purpledawn writes:
The point is that neither Jesus no God asks that we give up control of our lives. They do ask that we choose to follow God's commands because it is a better way of life,
How is choosing to follow God's commands in anyway different from giving up control of our own lives?
Think about it. We are going to have free will. Jesus never took away free will. But if we freely decide to follow God's commands, we are freely choosing to do the right thing even when we don't want to. You may not call this surrender. I simply can't see what then would be considered surrender. God is not making us slaves. We are making ourselves slaves to God. In all of scripture, there are moments when God made a person 'surrender'. Look at Paul. He was without his own control brought under the influence of a vision. The same is true of mystic saints. Yet, after these moments of ecstacy, the mystics will teach that all that is required for God to work in one is willingness. This is evidenced in the angel's words to Mary.
The question is, after such profound life-changing moments, can one truly NOT choose to follow God? Are they 'forced' by transports beyond our experience, or are they 'wiiling', or both?
I know that is slightly off topic. I want to only ask that for all practical purposes, how one could distinguish between surrender to God, and 'doing good'? Tell me what a person who has surrendered themselves IS doing if not following God? Are they controlling themselves, or is God? Maybe Jesus never said 'give up control' but He said 'follow me'. What is the difference really? If I look at two people, how can I tell who has given up control of their will, and who is merely doing good works?
If this is rambling forgive me, but I truly do not the see issue here. In the garden of Gethsemane, didn't Jesus say 'Father, not my will be done, but thine'? How is this not surrender? How is 'into thy hands I commend my spirit' not surrender? What are the characteristics of a person who 'gives control to God'? IMO they are the exact same ones as those possessed by people who are freely choosing to follow God.
Stile said before that a Christian gives control of his morality over to God or 'chance'. Yet the morals of a Christian are the exact same ones even if you strip the God part out. Love of neighbor is still love of neighbor. Surrendering to good advice, doing God's will, following Jesus, etc...it's all semantics. It's all the same in application.
Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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