Surrendering to Jesus/God is Not Biblical

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But I think your summary of the song is superficial at best. Rather than being simply a song about a career change it is really a song about consecration of his life to serve Christ.

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It wasn't a summary or a review. I provided the basis for the songs inspiration and asked the question: But did he give up any more than anyone else who decides to make a drastic career change? Did he surrender (give up control) all or just change the focus of his career?I stated in Message 1: When one is told to surrender one’s life to Jesus, the word surrender implies giving up power or control of our lives.In Message 83 I stated:

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We are sometimes called to wait on God....We stop doing what we do have control of, namely our activity.

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That sounds like passivity, which you said in Message 222 is not the case. Can you give a more specific example that demonstrates what you mean?

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purpledawn writes:

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So we really aren't truly giving up control of anything. We learn to change what we can and accept what we can't.

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Sounds to me like a humanist spin on Christian discipleship.
Did this come from some Twelve Step program slogan?

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Actually that psychology of thought was presented in a prayer by theologian Reinhold Niebuhr about 1926. The first portion has been adopted and altered by many, including AA.

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That could be because you have not experienced such a thing. And then as an outsider, it sounds foreign to anything you have known.

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My experience is irrelevant. A Christian should be able to clearly explain religious teachings in terminology that can be understood by a nonbeliever; just as a scientist, lawyer, computer geek, etc. should be able to clearly explain their specific lingo or jargon to one outside of those careers.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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The word "surrender" as related to giving in one's will to the will of God is not unrealistic. I fear that by saying that what Purpledawn may really be trying to say is that Christ is not alive. I am suspicious that Purpledawn is really teaching that Christ being a living Person is not biblical.

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This thread is questioning the teaching that one should surrender (give up) control of their life to God/Jesus and whether God/Jesus actually requires such an action. It is not wrong to question the teachings of man, so please address the position I've presented and refrain from putting words in my mouth to steer the discussion in a personal direction.Paul's writings are probably what inspired the teaching of giving up control of one's life, but what teaching of God/Jesus supports such a teaching?Acquiescence, Not Surrender (Message 56)Being taken captive doesn't mean one willingly choses to follow. My impression is that God/Jesus wants people to choose to follow.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

We've been through that already. A son doesn't surrender to his father. In fact, as a son matures, his subordination becomes less, not more.And following a leader is not surrender. Giving up the "desire to follow only himself" is not surrender - it's subordination. No it isn't. The opposite of "to oppose" is "to fight alongside". A soldier doesn't surrender to his own side, he subordinates himself. He can only surrender to the enemy. The story of Demas parallels the parable of the prodigal son. The lesson of the parable is that the Father doesn't want His sons to be servants. No more "damaged" than the prodigal son's "service" to his father. Again, the point of the story is the father's acceptance of the son, not the son's "service" to the father. You're just misusing the word "surrender" (where it doesn't even appear in the Bible). Overcoming one's desire for fleshly lust is a struggle - more like the opposite of surrender. No. The soldier is called to subordinate himself for the good of his own side. Part of that "good" is that if he follows faithfully, he is less likely to have to surrender to the opposite side. Surrender is an all-round negative thing. I don't think that Paul sought to bring down all reasoning, only wrong reasoning. After all, why would somebody try to reason on an Internet forum that God wants them to abandon reason?

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You are in rare form, Ringo! I think that if anything, we surrender to ourselves.We then willfully subordinate ourselves to God.

Then the basis that you provide is cynical and superficial.He does not have to live in the presence of God daily. He surrenders his right to do so in favor of living daily in God's presence.He does not have forsake worldly pleasures. He surrenders his perfect right to do so in favor of a higher enjoyment of Christ HimselfHe does not have to regard the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
After surrender it is the one thing that matters most to him.He has the right to live without regard for the blessing of God.
He surrenders his right to do so in favor of being governed by God's
blessing in the future.He gives up his former motivation, whatever it was, in favor of living by "the sacred flame".These are all the author's expressions of his voluntary surrender of his life to abide in a united existence with Jesus Christ.The same thought is expressed in another song on consecration. This song is similar to the I Surrender All. Yet it brings out an important paradox of surrender to the will of God. It seems a giving up. But it is actually a great gaining. It seems a restriction. But it is actually a liberation. It seems a relinquishing. But it is actually a rich obtaining.It is a "holy bargain". The writer says "O never speak of sacrifice! A privilege untold."This author touched on the essence of Christian consecration. He loses his soul life that he can find it. But the finding of this great prize, he describes as passing over "to God's complete control".To the author God's complete control means also the obtaining of a new holy self control, passing on to liberty, obtaining rich blessing. He has tasted that it is a great privilege to surrender his life to "God's complete control" for "God's complete control" he has found, is the greatest happiness.Surrender to God is biblical yet also paradoxical. I read that. And I still furnished evidence that the idea of surrender to God is biblical. Rather than quibble over parsing of words, I think it is more profitable to hear the testimonies of people who can share with us their experience of this surrendering, from both inside and outside of the Scriptures.There is no good reason why I should ignore the personal sentiments of the author of "I Surrender All" to replace them with your cynical viewpoint.I would agree that God does not want to usurp the human will so as to make robot machines. But I know that "Surrender" is an appropriate word to describe giving over self rule to Christ's rule. But the proper yielding to His commands is yielding to Jesus Himself because He lives within you.We who seek to live a "yielded" life are not speaking of obeying the instructions of a dead and absent Christ. We are talking about abiding in Him in His present form as "a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)Any thought of doing what Jesus said though Jesus maybe never lived or is dead and gone, is some humanist spin on the New Testament experience. Sure, in that case, you ARE very much still in control.You will probably be reluctant to indicate your personal opinion about the resurrection of Christ. I think you prefer to conceal this and parse symantics and quibble over word definitions.At the core, I think you may just be trying to teach that "surrender" to a dead person is nonsense. Jesus is not real and not present, perhaps according to your philosophy, so agreeing with His teaching objectively and ethically is not surrender to God. Hey, you are still very much in control. I think that may be the unstated essence of your argument. Do you want to be helped with more specific examples, truly?
There's an old saying "A person convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."I recommend to anyone interested Andrew Murray's classic Waiting on God. He does a thorough discussion on the matter from the book of Psalms. I think you are speaking from your experience of your kind of religious piety.That is all well and good. But others who have met the resurrected and living Christ have expressed their experience differently. I don't intend to dismiss their testimony as it reminds me of my own too - though not to the degree it should in some cases.Another Hymn which I think expresses realistic sentiments of a Christian's experience of surrender - "I Am Not My Own". Only one verse and chorus is quoted below: When I turned to Christ I was too proud to read the Bible. The first book I tried to read to get some help from was Reinhold Niebuhr's "The Nature and Destiny of Man". Some time latter I realized that the only portions of the book that seemed to help me where his quotations from the Bible, though I hardly knew that that is what they were.I probably would get a little more out of that book today.I respect R. Niebuhr as a intellectual and thoughtful theologian. But I also highly regard the sentiments of the brother who wrote "I Surrender All". They need to be listened to also IMO. I have heard of that before. And it has helped a lot of people. If you find it helpful I am happy for you.And I receive much help from a song like "Utterly Abandoned (to the Holy Ghost)" or "I Surrender All". These are more specifically about my relationship with the resurrected and living Jesus Christ. Okay. I disagree. That is if you are claiming to know a lot about consecration to Christ yet you don't believe that Christ is either the resurrected Son of God or the Lord of all.I believe that I have met Christ. Why should I dump my experience for you Modernist spin on the Gospel. I take issue with it and point out that you don't really know what you're talking about as far as consecration to Jesus Christ is concerned.Why don't you come right out and indicate whether you believe that this Person to whom we Christians talk of surrender to - is alive or dead?If you don't believe that Jesus is the living Lord - of course you're still in control. And any talk about being surrendered to Jesus is poppycock, to your way of thinking.Sure, you can do "the golden rule" some, without acknowledging that Christ is your Lord and lives in you. In that case such "surrender" is no more surrender than it would be to Confucius or Aristotle or some other wise person who is dead.For us who know that Christ lives - surrender to Jesus is real, yet it is paradoxical. For such surrender is liberation. Human words do find it difficult to explain such a paradox. Well, to a degree. But not in absolute terms. That is why the Bible states "Taste and see that the Lord is good."A Christian eventually invites the unbeliever to taste for himself, and see that the Lord is good.Another little song we Christians enjoy: Yes we can describe and describe. Eventually we invite our friends to experience Jesus the Lord for themselves.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I didn't say he did did I (bringing down all reasoning)?Paul specifies exactly WHAT KIND of thoughts they sought to overthrow. The high thoughts that rose up against the knowledge of God, they sought to overthrow in spiritual warfare.I did NOT say the Apostles were out to overthrow all human reasoning.Though I have given up trying to converse with you Ringo, pretty much, somebody crowed that you were in "rare form." So I took a peek.Sounds like your regular form to me. Try not to put words in my mouth while you debunk me, please?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Thanks. I thought so too. And of course, in warfare, surrender is a bad thing.How about responding to the content of my post: that nothing in the Bible advocates "surrender" - rather "subordination".Edited by Ringo, : Changed tense: "advocated" --> "advocates".

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Life experiences are not exactly the same. Each individual's spiritual journey is just as varied as life experiences. Individual personal experiences are of no use if people can't clearly describe what is happening.The "taste and see" concept is fine if one can make it clear what the person is tasting. Too many times when the taster doesn't experience the same "taste" or feelings, they are told they didn't "taste" the right thing or didn't "taste" it correctly. They also attack the sincerity of the individual's spirituality.Computer's can come off the assembly line all exactly the same, but each individual's experience with the computer are different. Some good and some bad. If a person says the software isn't performing the action that it is supposed to, we can find the problem so that the person will get the proper response from the software.The basics of the teaching should be clear and not a "you'll understand it when you see it or feel it" response.Hymns are nice for expressing ones feeling as songs are, but they aren't written to explain teachings. They are written to express emotions, feelings, hopes, etc.One's relationship with God/Jesus is personal. The emotions and feelings that one experiences are personal varied; but if we are truly expected to surrender (give up) control of our lives, that action should be the same.Anyone who can read, can see and read the Bible. Interpretation, emotions, and feelings will vary.
Anyone who wants to can see and be baptized. Again, emotions and feelings will vary.But when it comes to explaining how one actually surrenders (give up) control of one's life to God, explanation and justification is lacking.If the premise is that one is required to take this action, justification and clear instructions should be available.Repentance can be justified and explained.
Submission can be justified and explained.Surrendering (give up) control of one's life has not been justified or clearly explained.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I don't agree that someone speaking of her personal exprience is of no use. It may be of limited use. It is not of no use.Take for example the song "I Surrender All". It is of usefulness to stir the hearts of others who may be on the verge of such a surrender. That may be true is some cases. Does necessarily have to follow through in all cases.I give my testimony to people as to what it was like to meet the Lord Jesus. I often add a note that they may not have the exact same experience as I did. That is elementary. And a very stubburn person could say "Don't bother. Whatever you know has nothing to do with me." Do you think you can teach about marriage to the point that a person could know what it is without being married?I don't think so. It may still be of some value to tell a single person what it is like to be married. I have been married for 30 years. I sometimes describe things for the sake of my young adult children. My descriptions are of some limited value. In the final analysis they will have to experience marriage for themselves.I think a reaction of "You can't perfectly describe this thing to me so your talk is useless" is a little extreme. That's what parents and friends are for.I think you may be pushing it to an extreme. Coming back to surrender to God - here's a sentence which is not easy to understand:"I am crucified with Christ;" - Hmmm that not easy to grasp Paul."and it is no longer I who live" - Say what Paul ??" but it is Christ who lives in me;" - Hmmm, not you but Christ that lives in you Paul?"and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God Who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

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I do not nullify the grace of God" (See Galatians 2:20-21)Now you may say that Paul's description is useless because you cannot understand it. Well, you have that right. Some of us though are going to take it in.Even though it is not easy to get Paul's meaning we pray that as we grow in the Lord Jesus we come more and more into a realization of what Paul meant.I think I have touched some of it. When I stand in faith a proclaim that I have been crucified with Christ, I DO sense some old tendencies vanish in His indwelling presence. And I do sense that my living is in union with another Person whose love flows within me.Standing on the word of God is effectual and practical. Behind the writing is the living God. The word of God and the presence of God are like two tracks of a train track. They go together. Not true. Not a valid statement. I know hundreds of songs which also explain biblical teachings. It is also a matter of being corporate. We the believers are members one of another. We are members of the Body of Christ. This why Paul said we could all prophesy one by one that all may learn and all may be encouraged.We build up one another in love. We do not all retreat into our private closets. A Christian should have a hidden spiritual life before God. That is a root system. But she also needs a meeting life. That is a life of coming together to encourage one another and build up one another. It is a mingling with Christ in the surrender. "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)This is a union deep within. The human spirit and the Holy Spirit are joined to become one mingled spirit.I say it is paradoxical, this matter of surrender. I don't apologize for that. It is mysterious. It is not easy to explain.Have you read Paul prayer for the Christians in Ephesus? This is the Apostle's prayer that a living Person would more and more make His home in other living persons by faith. And then that these persons, rooted and grounded in divine love, may be stronger and stronger to apprehend the vast dimensions of the experience of Christ. The dimesions of Christ he describes as the very dimensions of the universe. How broad is "the breadth?" How long is "the length?" How high is "the height?" And how deep is "the depth?"These are the dimensions of the universe. In other words Christ is so vast and so immense and so all-inclusive. He is as extensive as the universe itself.There is so much of Him to be experience by His church. And the more He is experienced the more the believers are filled up unto the fulness of God. That is quite a prayer.We should learn of such a man as the Apostle Paul. He had definitely touched something exceedingly profound. Okay. First and foremost you have to meet Jesus as a living Person.Jesus the doctrine, Jesus as ideology, Jesus as a philosophy, Jesus as a theological debate, as a concept in the mind is of no value in this. First you have to meet Jesus as a living Person.Even to admit that He is living is a matter of surrender. The first act of surrender is to touch Him and call Him "Lord".Confessing to God "Jesus - my Lord. Jesus You are my Lord" is the beginning of this surrender.By the way. Surrender is only one word to discribe the experience. You need not be hung up on that one word. There is also the matter of receiving Him:"As many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name"Whether "Surrender" or "Receiving" or "Following" is used, it matters little.Look, Jesus is stronger than you are. He can subdue you if you let Him. He will not usurp your will.The Holy Spirit is symbolized as a DOVE not a Condor or an Eagle. He is gentle, single eyed, even easily chased away. This is the Spirit of Jesus. He is gentle. But He is strong. He is ever so strong.

Here are some other instances of surrender to God in the Bible: We are all proud. The proper experience of Christ calls for us surrendering up this pride to be humbled under the mighty hand of God. Paradoxically, in being humbled under the Mighty God we are truly exalted in due time. This verse preceeds the previous one. God resists the proud. The Christian is called to surrender to God's resistance and allow herself to "be humbled". Such surrendering of pride results in younger men being subject to elders by the grace of God. We are not only proud. But we are full of anxiety. Casting our anxiety upon the caring God is also surrendering up our anxious mind to the Holy Spirit. Casting is done by relinquishing. And relinquishing is a kind of surrendering up. We surrender up our anxious thoughts to God replacing such thoughts with trustful thanksgiving and praise. The Spirit of Jesus is operating in the Christian to renew his mind. We are called to allow, to be renewed in the spirit of our mind. That is to surrender up resistance to this action of renewing by the Spirit of Christ. To cooperate with His action to renew the old mind into a new mind.I would wager that all believers in Christ who experience this renewal in the mind by the Holy Spirit have no problem confessing that surrender was involved. The Holy Spirit is moving and operating within the hearts of the believers in Jesus. They can cooperate with surrender.We are to surrender up bitterness. We surrender up anger. We surrender up wrath, clamor, evil speaking. We surrender up malignant malice. These are all unpleasant and harmful emotional dispositions which the Christian is to allow God to remove from our hearts. Since God is taking the initiative to transform the soul it is a matter of surrendering to His inward actions. That is to "Let ..." Him operate unhindered. Christ surrendered Himself up to sacrifice Himself for the church. This surrendering is held up as a model for the Christian husband. By the power of God he should love his wife and be willing by the grace of God to give himself up for her.It is important to see that this giving one's self up for his wife is done by being filled with the Holy spirit in our human spirit. For a previous exhortation is to be filled in spirit: The long section of being subject and being ready to give up oneself for the wife is preceeded with the exhortation to be filled in spirit. Such subjection can only be carried out by being filled with the Holy Spirit in the human spirit.Look at the passages again in fuller context: This does involve not only surrender to God but also subjection to one another in the Christian community. This subjection to one another is manifested in corporate praise, thanksgiving, singing together spiritual songs, and psalming in our hearts together to the Lord.If you have ever sat in a Christian meeting where praises and singing is going on to the Lord and you wish to clamp your mouth shut rather than join in, you will know that a kind of surrender is called for - "Being subject to one another in the fear of Christ".In other words for Christ's sake we subject ourselves to one another in spiritual worship.Immediately following this passage we have this: Spirit filled Christian wives realize that that does require surrender. Behind the husband, as imperfect as he may be, the Spirit filled wife is to see the Lord. Her subjection is actually indirectly to the husband but directly to the Lord.A similar thing with the Spirit filled husbands involves surrender: Christ "gave Himself up" ie. He surrendered Himself. In the grace of the Holy Spirit filled human spirit, the Christian husband is also exhorted to give up himself for the wife as Christ did Himself for the church according to the will of His Father.Don't lose track of the initial exhortation to be filled in spirit. All these kinds of Christian subjection are prefaced by understanding the will of the Lord is for us to be filled with the Holy Spirit in our human spirit. Apparently this seems as surrendering up to earthly master. Actually, it is "as to Christ". It is subjection to Christ and recognizing Christ's authority as the final authority.Does this mean that the slave master is not also subject himself to the same Christ? No indeed. For verse 9 says the master is also to do some surrendering of his own: The master and the slave in the Christian community, are to surrender up to Christ the natural tendency and natural reaction of such a social system. Instead they are to behave as if both slave and master are subject to Christ in the heavens.These are not instructions for society at large. These are the Apostles instructions to Christian disciples who find themselves within this social structure at the time they become disciples of Christ. The slave and the master are brothers in Christ. And each is to be filled in spirit and subject to Christ. Christ is behind the master. And Christ is behind the slave. And Christ to whom we are to subject ourselves, is no respector of persons.These passages are elaboragted on here to portray Christian surrender of sorts in various exhortations.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I see your in fine form yourself Jaywill. Rousing stuff!

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I don't agree that someone speaking of her personal experience is of no use.

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There's an "if" in my statement. If people can't clearly describe what is happening. Plus my statement is in relation to this discussion which is about surrendering. The writer of the song did not give up control of his life. He changed careers which can be emotional for anyone. An executive gives up his lucrative career to devote his life to teaching children. They did not give up control of their lives.You have not described the actual process of giving up control of one's life. What you have described so far is submission, which I have already agreed in Message 1 and Message 56 as well as several other times is covered by God/Jesus in the Bible.As I said in Message 227, this thread is questioning the teaching that one should surrender (give up) control of their life to God/Jesus and whether God/Jesus actually requires such an action. It is not just about the word surrender, it is about the teaching that one should give up control of their life to God/Jesus.

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Do you think you can teach about marriage to the point that a person could know what it is without being married?

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Surrendering is an action. Getting married is an action. The process of getting married can be described clearly. The relationship within the marriage, is just that a relationship. I've already stated that the relationship with God/Jesus is personal and not something that can be taught; but if we are required by God/Jesus to give up control of our lives, the process should be clear so that people know that they are giving up control of their lives.The discussion isn't about what it is like to surrender or submit to God/Jesus. As I said in Message 1, it is a discussion on what is written in the Bible that does or does not support that Jesus or God requires us to give up control of our lives.What you have described so far and in the bulk of your message is yielding to a course of action or giving up wrong behavior, not giving up control of one's life.

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By the way. Surrender is only one word to discribe the experience. You need not be hung up on that one word.

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You're arguing what I've already agreed is covered by God/Jesus in the Bible. I'm not hung up on the word, I'm hung up on the current teaching that states we are required to give up control of our lives to God/Jesus and whether that is supported by God/Jesus in the Bible.Edited by purpledawn, : Fixed Link

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

As I've already showed, you're addressing the wrong issue.There is no argument that repentance, submission, subjection, or forms of yielding are supported by the Bible.What you haven't shown is that God/Jesus requires us to give up control of our lives.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

"Surrender, men! We don't have a chance! Drop your weapons and RUN!"Rousing stuff.Edited by Ringo, : Added signature.

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This is a good discussion and I find myself agreeing with both the surrender camp and the subordination camp.Arguments can be made for both words...and I now present my good friend, Mr. Dictionary, to give us a brief lecture on the meanings of the words themselves, in the hope that deeper understanding may be gleaned: In the above examples, I can see where relinquishing control is a key element that some Christians believe needs to happen on a practical level, if not a literal one.Paul said: Notice that he says in one sentence that he no longer lives...yet in the next sentence that he lives by faith.
We could argue that Paul is asserting that every decision ever made in his life is made in subordination to Christs care and control. (ideally, right?)
Lets ask Mr. Dictionary about subordination....... I can see where it can be argued that one surrenders Ego to Christ yet subordinates their body and soul to Him.In the Army, before a soldier can be properly useful as a subordinate, they have to surrender their Ego and desire to be independent. This does not mean, however, that they are brainwashed and that their mind is wiped clean of all characteristics unique to themselves. I think this is what Ringo is trying to say.