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Author | Topic: You Guys Need to Communicate! (thoughts from an ex evangelical Christian) | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Who says it's "God's scripture"?
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein. AdminPD Edited by AdminPD, : Warning
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: How so?
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
anastasia writes: I disagree, Percy. I'm only just barely able to describe Sam Harris's views on religious moderates, so defending them is probably too much a stretch for me. I think he makes his point very effectively when he speaks, but reproducing those arguments should not be casually attempted. In the video Sam Harris at Idea CIty '05 he gives a very good summary of this view. This view, among other Harris views, is likely to come up in the upcoming Great Debate between Jazzns and Randman. --Percy
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5982 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
Yes, I understand that you had only given a sampling of the views of Mr Harris. Thank you for the link; nothing too surprising there in comparison with what is heard on a daily basis at EvC.
Although I had thought that he was comparing moderates and fundementalists, he is actually condemning them equally. I am sure that, given the right fanatical disposition of his adherents, Mr Harris' own exclusive views could on their own, further intolerence of others in the same way that any belief could. He makes a good point about 'belief' in general, and perhaps it would be a good topic starter; which beliefs exactly are most dangerous, how so, etc? For example, when does a belief in an immanent or eventual return of Jesus, turn dangerous?
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Ophir Junior Member (Idle past 6278 days) Posts: 14 Joined: |
quote: Gimme some prophecies that will erase my doubt.
quote: I did. In fact, I studied with a YEC preacher who taught me all about the verity of YECism, man’s need for a savior, the reality of Hell, prophecies fulfilled, etc. He was an intense spiritual figure and I wanted to live a life for Christ as uncompromising as him. We recently found out this man molested two of my wife’s cousins. Ritually. Under our noses. I wonder if you know what that does to a believer, Buz. I’ll tell you what it does. Such betrayals become the impetus for believers to test what they have been told by such Christian men. When I did this, I realized I had been lied to about YEC and evidence for biological evolution. Things start coming together and making sense, like the catastrophe thread that I started earlier. Soon you realize you can’t concurrently believe one thing while ignoring the obvious evidence against it. I'm not "into" denying what is plainly evident anymore. You are bidding me to believe that God created a young earth while at the same time “planting” evidence of an ancient earth and speciation over time. This might make perfect sense to you, but I cannot even concieve of a God who would weave that kind of deception into the creation in order to test humanity.
quote: I never expected to understand it fully. I only expect fundagelicals to get their stories straight about whether the Adamic Fall introduced death into the world. If it did, YECs have a real problem. If it didn't OECs have a real problem. That's why you guys bicker constantly among yourselves about your beliefs. i.e., A religion concocted by men would obviously branch out into various disagreeing sects and result in the doctrinal confusion and uncertainty that we see today. That’s just what men do, and Christianity is no different in this regard. When I realized this, the scales fell from my eyes. At least in this respect, I identify with Paul.
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AdminPD Inactive Administrator |
Welcome Ophir,
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
A Fundementalist may indeed be an honest person, but taking the Bible literally in all matters is not superior to understanding the context in which it was written, or to using a God-given dose of reason to decipher the MANY meanings of scripture. I have not found that moderates on this forum abandon any part of scripture, but have ascribed a different meaning to passages which honestly no one has the 'true' answer to. We are all working with the same revealed truth, but it always, always comes down to an interpretation. Isn't always interpretation that brings division? I mean, when we read Paul's epistles, a difference in interpretation seems to have caused a lot of enmity and strife. This poor tradition has carried through today. And even when we read Revelation, John talks about the Churches of Asia. There are many different characteristics given of these churches, where God judges them on their merits and faults. If the Revelation passage is true, then there is a multitude of churches who are misinterpreting the message of God. The problem is, even interpreting the message of that passage is subject to interpretation. As for moderates and fundamentalists, its all ambiguous and cryptic. Who is a fundamentalist and who is a moderate? That would seem subjective. To some I'm a fundamentalist, to others, a moderate. I guess it doesn't really matter what man thinks about me anyway.
To say someone 'knows and believes exactly what scripture says' is false IMO, as we can ALL know exactly what scripture says, but as you may notice, we only believe what we think it means or what our 'elders' have decided it means. I agree. I have my opinions on who interprets the Bible correctly, but that doesn't mean that I have the esoteric knowledge of knowing that with all certainty. No one owns the title deed to the Bible. I guess all we can do is ask for guidance and extract whatever meaning we can from the message and then to give meaning to it through human experience.
The main problem I see in the Fundementalism movement is, that they have completely abandoned any tradition to forge their own way using only the Bible as reference. I see it the opposite way. I think man made traditions have attempted to usurp, whether by design or happenstance, the authority of scripture. I am more of a Sola Scriptura kind of guy, but at the same time, I do know what you mean.
Thus, in a sense they are cut off from the rich background of tradition which gives meaning to many passages. If you mean that tradition in this sense means the human experience, then I certainly agree. Without us going about our daily lives and living the good, bad, ugly, beautiful, just, unjust things of this world, all the scriptures would be meaningless passages. "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5982 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
Sorry, nemesis, I am always inserting foot in mouth. Honestly, when I heard the quotes of Sam Harris in context, any remark that I made was only tangentially relevent.
nemesis_juggernaut writes: Isn't always interpretation that brings division? I mean, when we read Paul's epistles, a difference in interpretation seems to have caused a lot of enmity and strife. This poor tradition has carried through today. And even when we read Revelation, John talks about the Churches of Asia. There are many different characteristics given of these churches, where God judges them on their merits and faults. If the Revelation passage is true, then there is a multitude of churches who are misinterpreting the message of God. The problem is, even interpreting the message of that passage is subject to interpretation. Humorous, but probably a safe bet to say Revelations is right about that one.
As for moderates and fundamentalists, its all ambiguous and cryptic. Who is a fundamentalist and who is a moderate? That would seem subjective. To some I'm a fundamentalist, to others, a moderate. I guess it doesn't really matter what man thinks about me anyway Well, I think I understand what Harris started to say about moderates, but it all went too general. And it IS very subjective; some think of fundementalism as fanaticism, I see it as a movement which began in the early 1900's, Bible-based, and having a lot of Calvinist doctrine. I think you and I are both probably fanatical about religion, moderate in action, and fundemental in belief, and that any of these adjectives can be interchanged mercilessly.
I see it the opposite way. I think man made traditions have attempted to usurp, whether by design or happenstance, the authority of scripture. I am more of a Sola Scriptura kind of guy, but at the same time, I do know what you mean. Imagine Christianity dies out altogether. I try to imagine if it could be recreated as anything like what it is now based solely on the Bible and without the accompanying traditional interpretation. I guess the way I see it is that the further back you go, the better chance of understanding the context of scripture and how it was interpreted by those who first heard it, in their own time and their own language. Likewise, those who have gone out from various religious instititions and started small sola scriptura communities, have started their own traditions in interpretation removed from the parent 'plant'. Whether this is an accomplishment or a detriment is debateable.
If you mean that tradition in this sense means the human experience, then I certainly agree. Without us going about our daily lives and living the good, bad, ugly, beautiful, just, unjust things of this world, all the scriptures would be meaningless passages. I suppose this is where my bias comes in. I know you are well versed in Hebrew studies, and just imagine if we could not understand the context of so many events of the Bible, because we had lost the entire traditional record of the Jewish people. Yet, from the time of the apostles onward, the traditions and customs of the early church have been abandoned as if no one could ever do anything worthwhile again. It is like we keep studying every little tiny move of Biblical figures in order to get more insight into the passages, when we should also say; 'hey, what did this passage mean to people of that generation?'. There can be a middle ground, I guess, but I tend to stereotype fundementalists as well, fundementalists, house-cleaners, throw it all out bare bones. Besides that, my post was pretty useless; a well-meaning shot in the big toe of the 'enemy'.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Well, I think I understand what Harris started to say about moderates, but it all went too general. And it IS very subjective; some think of fundementalism as fanaticism, I see it as a movement which began in the early 1900's, Bible-based, and having a lot of Calvinist doctrine. I think you and I are both probably fanatical about religion, moderate in action, and fundemental in belief, and that any of these adjectives can be interchanged mercilessly. I think you have a good observation here. From Harris' point of view I understand what he is saying as well about fundamentalism. Amongst Christians, we sometimes refer to the hard-nosed beliefs as "legalism," a focus on the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law. But from what little I have read from Harris, he seems to believe that all religion is essentially a dangerous dogma. If indeed this is what he believes it incredibly ignorant as it hyper focuses on the negative aspects of any given religion while it overlooks all of its positive attributes.
Imagine Christianity dies out altogether. I try to imagine if it could be recreated as anything like what it is now based solely on the Bible and without the accompanying traditional interpretation. I guess the way I see it is that the further back you go, the better chance of understanding the context of scripture and how it was interpreted by those who first heard it, in their own time and their own language. For most people, the Bible is all they have. Take for instance missionaries who take the gospel to the remotest parts of the world. Ingigenous people from these parts of the world probably know nothing about the various traditions. All they have is the gospel in its purest form without bias, without it being tainted or convoluted from the countless interpretations of man. There is something that strikes me as very innocent and pure about that.
Likewise, those who have gone out from various religious instititions and started small sola scriptura communities, have started their own traditions in interpretation removed from the parent 'plant'. Whether this is an accomplishment or a detriment is debateable. Surely one could make the argument that all sorts of bizarre and counter intuitive interpretations stem from a parent church where it synthesizes in to some wild vagaries or interpretations. But that's only indicative of man's folly, isn't it? To place blame on a Sola Scriptura mentality, or the scriptures themselves, might be like blaming a baseball bat manufacturer for someone using their bats inappropriately to commit a heinous murder. Is it the manufacturer's fault or the murderer's? Couldn't we then extend that argument to the scriptures?
I suppose this is where my bias comes in. I know you are well versed in Hebrew studies Oh, no, I could by no means think of myself as well versed in Hebrew studies. It interests me and I want to learn more about it, but I'm quite aways out still. I'll take that as a compliment, so, thanks for the vote of confidence, but I have so very far to go.
just imagine if we could not understand the context of so many events of the Bible, because we had lost the entire traditional record of the Jewish people. Yet, from the time of the apostles onward, the traditions and customs of the early church have been abandoned as if no one could ever do anything worthwhile again. It is like we keep studying every little tiny move of Biblical figures in order to get more insight into the passages, when we should also say; 'hey, what did this passage mean to people of that generation?'. I understand what you're saying. For instance, the tradition concerning Isaiah is that he was sawn in half. We don't know that for sure, but tradition tells us that he was martyred. There are a couple of allusions to it in the Bible, one where Jesus gave His famous rebuking of the Pharisees in the Temple, and the second from Paul in the book of Hebrews. The same traditions concerning martyrdom are said about the early Christians, like Peter and Paul. So in a sense, I appreciate the traditions to a degree, but even Jesus warned about such things to the Pharisees. "So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?" He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! -Mark 7:5-9 At the same time, I think there is some balance necessary. Because you and I both know people who opt for a Mr. Potato Head god. What is the best known feature about Mr. Potato Head? His interchangeable parts, right? I think you and I both know people who invent their own god. They take the aspects of a certain religion or tradition that sounds appealing to them and apply it in the best way they see fit. What a convenient interpretation of God, huh? Isn't that tantamount to idolatry? I think so. So maybe a healthy balance is needed, where neither complete tradition or complete non-traditionalis views are asserted.
Besides that, my post was pretty useless; a well-meaning shot in the big toe of the 'enemy'. Well, I liked your post. "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Now cognitive dissonance has won out and I have abandoned the fundies. I have gone on Christian forums to express my dismay at the brainwashing I endured, and even exposed the deceptive tactics of many a YEC. What exactly makes for brainwashing do you suppose? What is the criteria for brainwashing? When and how does someone move from listening to personal belief in liturgy to full on brainwashing?
Little did I know I'm still not justified in abandoning the Bible as an inspired text. No, I have been told by seeming reasonable Christians that I need not have been brainwashed. The Bible, they tell me, says nothing about sin introducing death into the world. Things died pre-Fall because the Bible doesn't say that things DIDN'T die. Does it really matter either way? Is it so central to the premise that it would justify leaving the faith completely? What did you like about being a Christian that would have held your affection? Were you someone born in to the Church that became disenchanted with life's faade? In other words, is this an act of teenage rebellion or is it actually a well informed decision you have made?
Seeing YECs fight with each other on who has the most biblical YEC stance reminded me of just how ridiculous the evangelism routine is. Is your beef with Young Earth Creationism or is it with Christianity?
In a system where religion is a conconction of men, such things are to be expected. That's what gives me comfort. At least it's no mystery why men argue endlessly about trivial religious matters. It's very similar to those who bicker about constitutional authority. It sounds to me like maybe you are a little tired of the religion of religion. Totally understandable. It seems as if you are a seeker of Truth®, but that you aren't sure what it is and where to find it. Is that accurate? "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5982 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
May I quote something from a book I have, entitled, 'Religion in the New World'?
Richard Wentz writes: The American people interpreted their experience (frontier life, etc)as one of aloneness, of awesome private responsibility, courage, and expectation. They assumed their existance was a kind of raw and conspicuous individualism. In their own minds, this condition was God-given, thrusting upon them enormous potential. Alone with their obligation, they looked to the sacred text for answers to the tension between their obvious weakness and supposed strength. They became confessors of sin and celebrators of salvation-all of it immediate and assisted by a text that infused spiritual power into the individual who turned to it in reverent private judgement. For such people the Bible was the only authority outside of their own individual judgement that they were willing to recognize. This meant that the Bible was invested with inviolate jurisdiction over their lives. It became an oracle to be consulted instead of a collection of writings representing the faith of a community, the one holy Catholic and apostolic church. It became an icon, a sacred object to be worshipped and venerated as a bearer of magical powers. It became a manual, an answer book, instead of a record of God's dialogue with His creation. The stage was set for the emergence of Fundementalism. That might be too long, and I hope no one will get angry, but the book does a good job of showing the progression of religious movements in America, and how in many ways the adherence to any old traditions was pretty incongruous with the new lifestyles, challenges, experiences of the faithful. So, in a sense, they 'moderated' back then into fundementalism, did their own tossing of the irrelevent, and started a new tradition. That was possibly considered progressive, the destruction of what was no longer meaningful. Now I would say a moderate does the same thing. Edited by anastasia, : tyoing error
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
nator writes: Who says it's "God's scripture"? Make that Jehovah, the Biblical god's scripture. It is the only scripture with Jehovah's signature on it's pages, over 6000 signatures, that is.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Make that Jehovah, the Biblical god's scripture. It is the only scripture with Jehovah's signature on it's pages, over 6000 signatures, that is. You got a copy of that thar signature. LOL Did Jehovah use a pen or jess a stylus? Before he created geese, what type quill did He use? Come on Buz. Stop making folk laugh. Stop saying really stupid things like "It is the only scripture with Jehovah's signature on it's pages, over 6000 signatures, that is." You're just making Christians look stupid. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Ophir writes: It's very similar to those who bicker about constitutional authority. Mmm....Bickering about constitutional authority....If the Constitution has authority, isn't it logical and in fact needful that debate and dialog is good so as to be sure that the authority of it is not abused/altered/missused? And what if dialog and debate about it's authority were forbidden? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Jar, me olde friend, what other scriptures/holy books even mention the name Jehovah? As for the signatures, i.e. naming Jehovah/YHWH, check out the ASV (American Standard Version), the most literal translation of the oldest manuscripts in existence.
ABE: Jar, me olde friend, I gotta say, the more you do to me, the better you make me look. Glad you're back! Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given. Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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