|
Author
|
Topic: Old Laws Still Valid?
|
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3026 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: 02-01-2006
|
|
Message 91 of 303 (373277)
12-31-2006 10:07 PM
|
Reply to: Message 76 by jar
12-31-2006 5:45 PM
|
|
Re: Still just platitudes
Yes, some at this web site do not have a clue what the Christian life is all about. Try these platitudes, Phil 2:12-13 "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." If one does not know what it means to be "born again" as Jesus declared in John 3:3-7, then he cannot see the kingdom of God, let alone enter into the kingdom of God. I'm sure these are just more platitudes as well.
The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 76 by jar, posted 12-31-2006 5:45 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 93 by jar, posted 12-31-2006 10:25 PM | | John 10:10 has replied | | | Message 98 by Rob, posted 12-31-2006 11:49 PM | | John 10:10 has not replied |
|
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: 06-01-2006
|
|
|
Message 92 of 303 (373281)
12-31-2006 10:22 PM
|
Reply to: Message 90 by jar
12-31-2006 9:23 PM
|
|
Re: Trying to head towards the subject.... Of course you were!
If we look at the Laws as laid out in the Bible what we find is that most are simply outdated. Most really are no longer valid. The idea of stoning someone for working on the Sabbath was even shown to be foolish by no less than Jesus. What Jesus did was show that men had perverted the law, and made it all about outward, and religious nonsense. They twisted it into a religion whereby some men were more equal than others. When it is the law that was given to equalize men, by placing their filthy righteousness under the foot of Jesus. By reminding us the standard is so high, that only the coming savior could fulfill it and save mankind. And He told the Pharisees that the Sabbath was made for man's benefit, not for God's, because God is always working. And he explained that the heart of all the laws is what counts. The clear and present intention to love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and strength. That honest striving to learn the truth, so that we can come to know Him. Then when we know Him, our works will follow naturally from our heart. He made it clear that doing is meaningless if it is done only for men to see. Would you like me to give the verses where He said these things, as well as the one's you use as evidence to support your assertion? I assume you do consider Jesus' testimony valid, since you sourced Him... right?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 90 by jar, posted 12-31-2006 9:23 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 94 by jar, posted 12-31-2006 10:37 PM | | Rob has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 93 of 303 (373282)
12-31-2006 10:25 PM
|
Reply to: Message 91 by John 10:10
12-31-2006 10:07 PM
|
|
Re: Still just platitudes
I'm sure these are just more platitudes as well. Yup. And off topic and unrelated to the thread as well. As I said, most of the Laws in the Bible have been found to be silly and so recognized as invalid. As Laws become just silly and pointless relics, they need to be reconsidered, rejected and removed. The rest is just living. Throw the platitudes away, they reduce Christianity to nothing more than a bad beer commercial. Screw worrying about your salvation. That is a done deal, finished, over, freely granted to everyone, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Satanist, Wiccan, Taoist, Buddhist, Confucians, Agnostic and Atheist. What you will be judged on is not beliefs, not professions, but your personal behavior. Forget the Law. Try to do what is right, try not to do what is wrong and honestly evaluate your performance. When you fail, acknowledge it and try not to do that again. It really is as simple as that.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 91 by John 10:10, posted 12-31-2006 10:07 PM | | John 10:10 has replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 94 of 303 (373285)
12-31-2006 10:37 PM
|
Reply to: Message 92 by Rob
12-31-2006 10:22 PM
|
|
Re: Trying to head towards the subject.... Of course you were!
Try the subject Rob. "Old Laws Still Valid?" That is the question.
What Jesus did was show that men had perverted the law, and made it all about outward, and religious nonsense. Okay. So he agreed that the Biblical Laws were not valid.
The clear and present intention to love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and strength. That honest striving to learn the truth, so that we can come to know Him. Then when we know Him, our works will follow naturally from our heart. Yup, it is what we do. Like my mommy used to say, it ain't what you say that counts, it's what you do. That is clearly laid out in Matthew 25:31-46 and it's short so I will post all of it for folk to read.
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Notice there is nothing in there about belief, or doing Christ's work, or laws written on hearts, or being born again or any of the other platitudes so beloved by the apologists. It talks about doing stuff, little stuff, unimportant stuff. It's about the little things we do everyday without Law, without trying to do Christ's work, without being born again.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 92 by Rob, posted 12-31-2006 10:22 PM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 95 by Rob, posted 12-31-2006 10:58 PM | | jar has replied |
|
Rob
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: 06-01-2006
|
|
|
Message 95 of 303 (373290)
12-31-2006 10:58 PM
|
Reply to: Message 94 by jar
12-31-2006 10:37 PM
|
|
Old laws still valid!
Okay. So he agreed that the Biblical Laws were not valid. I think you've misunderstood the passage jar. Please allow me to put the picture together. Let me serve you... Matthew 5:17-20
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. As for Matthew 25 that you referenced, let me explain how this coheres with the words of Jesus in chapter 5. All it takes is a little thought, and the connection is clear as day. We must take all of his words into context. We do not make discoveries by eliminating resources that are complimentary, but by using all those that cohere.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? Do you notice it is the righteous who are the one's who do not acknowledge their own works for any value in saving them?
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Yet here, those on his left appeal to the good works they have done and are shocked. Then Jesus tells us how this connects to the Matthew 5.
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. In otherwords, if our works are going to save us, they must be flawless. Right down to the smallest letter, and least stroke of the pen. That is why He came to fulfill the law. Because none of us could. But if you want to ask Him, 'when you did not do these things?', that is your perogative. I cannot say that you are a sinner. I don't know your heart like Jesus does. I can only admit that I am, and suggest that people consider for themselves that they may be headed for a dead end. Edited by scottness, : No reason given. Edited by scottness, : No reason given.
If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 94 by jar, posted 12-31-2006 10:37 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 96 by jar, posted 12-31-2006 11:30 PM | | Rob has replied | | | Message 103 by ringo, posted 01-01-2007 10:07 AM | | Rob has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 96 of 303 (373298)
12-31-2006 11:30 PM
|
Reply to: Message 95 by Rob
12-31-2006 10:58 PM
|
|
Re: Old laws still valid!
Yet here, those on his left appeal to the good works they have done and are shocked. Nonsense. Sorry but I posted the whole thing and people can read it in context. I thought it was funny when you misrepresented what I say, but now I see you misrepresent Jesus as well. Oh well. As to Mat 5, that too has NOTHING to do with the topic. The topic is "Old Laws Still Valid?" The fact is that many of them are no longer valid. Fortunately it is no longer illegal to eat shrimp. That law is not valid. Fortunately we can cut our hair. That law is not valid. Fortunately we do not have to stone folk that work on the Sabbath. That law is not valid. Fortunately we can grow two crops in the same field and wear WoolRich™ clothes. Those laws are no longer valid. Fortunately women no longer have to hide themselves away when having their period. That law is not valid. Fortunately we no longer can own slaves. Those laws are invalid. Fortunately we no longer have to gather the whole town to stone those who curse. Those laws are invalid. That is the topic.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by Rob, posted 12-31-2006 10:58 PM | | Rob has replied |
|
Rob
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: 06-01-2006
|
|
|
Message 97 of 303 (373300)
12-31-2006 11:42 PM
|
Reply to: Message 96 by jar
12-31-2006 11:30 PM
|
|
Re: Old laws still valid!
Those laws are invalid jar, you need to calm down. You've made a mistake. It happens! I do it all the time... daily even. Those laws are not totally invalid. The punishment and condemnation is invalid. The Pharisees protected themselves by doing all of these other laws. Jesus told them off, and pointed to the heart of the law. Don't you get it? The Ten Commandments are what is still valid. Stop throwing the baby out with the bath water. Don't be so black and white and absolute about it. The only thing absolute is the intent remember? That is what Jesus confirms.... Listen to Him. He tells us what is important in regard to the law... or is chapter 25 of Matthew the only words of Jesus that are valid?
Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. 25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. 27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. 29 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. You said: That is the topic. I completely agree! Edited by scottness, : No reason given. Edited by scottness, : clarity
If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 96 by jar, posted 12-31-2006 11:30 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 99 by jar, posted 12-31-2006 11:50 PM | | Rob has replied |
|
Rob
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: 06-01-2006
|
|
|
Message 98 of 303 (373301)
12-31-2006 11:49 PM
|
Reply to: Message 91 by John 10:10
12-31-2006 10:07 PM
|
|
Re: Still just platitudes
Yes, some at this web site do not have a clue what the Christian life is all about. You're totally correct John 10:10 And you are wise to let it go with this one. He's... difficult. Perhaps I will learn that myself some day.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 91 by John 10:10, posted 12-31-2006 10:07 PM | | John 10:10 has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 99 of 303 (373302)
12-31-2006 11:50 PM
|
Reply to: Message 97 by Rob
12-31-2006 11:42 PM
|
|
Re: Old laws still valid!
Those laws are not totally invalid. The punishment and condemnation is invalid. Don't you get it? The commandments are what is still valid. More mental gymnastics and masturbation. Folk can read what I posted in Message 96 and decide for themselves. I have no more time for nonsense and totally off topic unimportant irrelevancies, even those that actually support my position. I listed some of the old laws. The question is "are they still valid?" I pointed out where they were no longer valid. If you believe otherwise, fine. You are free to believe anything you want. I will try to stick to the topic under discussion.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 97 by Rob, posted 12-31-2006 11:42 PM | | Rob has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 100 by Rob, posted 12-31-2006 11:58 PM | | jar has not replied |
|
Rob
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: 06-01-2006
|
|
|
Message 100 of 303 (373304)
12-31-2006 11:58 PM
|
Reply to: Message 99 by jar
12-31-2006 11:50 PM
|
|
Re: Old laws still valid!
Folk can read what I posted in Re: Old laws still valid! (Message 96) and decide for themselves. I hope they do!
I will try to stick to the topic under discussion. The topic is 'Old laws are still valid'. The topic is not what you think that means, or what I think that means. We have different interpretations of the matter. So stop playing the stupid Topic Card just because I see it differently. As you said, let the audience decide.
If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows ” the only food that any possible universe ever can grow ” then we must starve eternally. (Lewis- The Problem of Pain)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 99 by jar, posted 12-31-2006 11:50 PM | | jar has not replied |
|
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5984 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: 11-05-2006
|
|
|
Message 101 of 303 (373305)
01-01-2007 12:00 AM
|
Reply to: Message 96 by jar
12-31-2006 11:30 PM
|
|
Re: Old laws still valid!
Those laws are invalid. They are. But how do you know those are THE law? Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but those laws are abolished. How would you reconcile this, other than to say that Jesus is a liar? or that we were meant to retain these laws? Or maybe, with the words on the cross 'it is finished' He abolished the Law?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 96 by jar, posted 12-31-2006 11:30 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 104 by jar, posted 01-01-2007 10:16 AM | | anastasia has replied |
|
Rob
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: 06-01-2006
|
Old law still valid?
If you start here, you'll be in for a treat regardless of where you you stand on the matter. This old thread is stil kickin' http:// EvC Forum: Old Laws Still Valid? --> EvC Forum: Old Laws Still Valid?
|
ringo
Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
|
|
|
Message 103 of 303 (373369)
01-01-2007 10:07 AM
|
Reply to: Message 95 by Rob
12-31-2006 10:58 PM
|
|
Re: Old laws still valid!
scottness writes: 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? Do you notice it is the righteous who are the one's who do not acknowledge their own works for any value in saving them? No. The righteous did not realize that they would be judged by their works alone. It was Jesus who told them that they were righteous because of their works alone.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Yet here, those on his left appeal to the good works they have done and are shocked. Again, no. The unrighteous on His left thought they could be saved by paying lip-service to loving Him. He told them that the only way to love Him is by loving our fellow man.
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. In otherwords, if our works are going to save us, they must be flawless. Right down to the smallest letter, and least stroke of the pen. No. (Third strike.) Whatever we do to the least of His brethern, we do to Him (verse 40). Technically, one good deed could be enough to number you among the sheep. It isn't one strike and you're out. It's one run can win the game. Loving thy neighbour as thyself is the fulfilment of the law. Jesus came to explain that and to be an example of that. The old letter of the law - e.g. eating shrimp, etc. - is invalid because it is not about loving thy neighbour. The old spirit of the law is still valid.
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by Rob, posted 12-31-2006 10:58 PM | | Rob has not replied |
|
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
|
|
|
Message 104 of 303 (373370)
01-01-2007 10:16 AM
|
Reply to: Message 101 by anastasia
01-01-2007 12:00 AM
|
|
Re: Old laws still valid!
They are. But how do you know those are THE law? Say what? "The Law?" And that is related to the topic which is "Old Laws Still Valid?" in what way? But even if it is off topic, follow along and lets see if we can't find a way to bring it in.
Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but those laws are abolished. How would you reconcile this, other than to say that Jesus is a liar? or that we were meant to retain these laws? I wouldn't much worry about it other than to note that it is yet another example of contradictions found in the Bible. There are quite a few explanations. It could be whoever wrote that section (and the alleged words of Jesus are not things anyone would expect to be exact), got it wrong. It certainly could be that Jesus lied. It could also simply be an example of folk today quotemining and so missing the whole context. I think the later is the most likely explanation. The Pharisees and Sadducees as well as many of the people saw the Law as Absolute. Much of Jesus teachings here on earth was to tear down the concept of Absolutes, to show by word and deed that Absolute Morality or Absolute Law do not exist. Jesus taught us that Laws must give way to common sense, to Justice, to doing what is right instead of doing what is legal, to not doing what is wrong as opposed to not doing what is illegal. Jesus point on the Law, IMHO is the same as on all the platitudes that like today, became the basis for peoples religion. Throw them away. The way you fulfill "THE LAW" is first by tossing out those laws that are no longer valid.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 101 by anastasia, posted 01-01-2007 12:00 AM | | anastasia has replied |
|
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 3026 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: 02-01-2006
|
|
|
Message 105 of 303 (373371)
01-01-2007 10:17 AM
|
Reply to: Message 93 by jar
12-31-2006 10:25 PM
|
|
Re: Still just platitudes
All of the OT, including the laws, were given by God to lead us to eternal life that's in Jesus Christ. The Lord said it best in John 5:39-40, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have eternal life." Your salvation is determined by your acceptance or rejection of the blood of Jesus covering your sins. Your rewards are determined by your obedience allowing Jesus to be Lord of your life, and good works follow those who are saved by God's grace (Eph 2:8-10). "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:17-18) Since the forum topic is Bible study, nowhere does the Bible declare salvation is granted freely to everyone. It is granted to those who follow the prescription God gives in John 3:16. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." It's as simple and as difficult as that!
The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by jar, posted 12-31-2006 10:25 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 106 by jar, posted 01-01-2007 10:31 AM | | John 10:10 has replied | | | Message 107 by ringo, posted 01-01-2007 10:44 AM | | John 10:10 has not replied |
|
™ Version 4.2