Babel: The Mother Culture?

Well, I think that the story is ltterally true... but I think the most important point of the story is often missed. It is a change in worldview that the story reveals.This isn't very good, but read it slowly and try and catch the point. It is very difficult to express.I have prepaired myself for the guffaws!Genesis 11

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Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. As men moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.
They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.”
They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”
But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”
So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it was called Babel - because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth.Luke 12; 51 . ”Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.”The Tower of Babel is the story of mans attempt to create truth and unite all things to himself. It is the story of underestimating the glorious depths of truth. It is an ongoing story . The Lord made all of creation to reflect His Glory. The truth of God (Christ, the begotten Son) defined and shaped all things, and created things to fashion them for the purpose for which all things we’re made. The philosophy of God is simply the truth. It was not created, but simply is. He is the master philosopher. No other contrived ideal would reflect the University of God and His creations; they are meant to be in him. Without him they do not exist.As these men developed their religion of man, divisions arose quite super-naturally by the transcendence of Gods reality. No other key would fit the whole. God confused their thoughts by his depth, and University splintered under their knives.One likely insisted on some of the old sacrificial ways of Gods very Word, and the other considered human sacrifice, and another the worshiping of idols. They became diverse, and their one human will split into oblivion. They had put themselves first; above the truth of God which is their only salvation. They tried to dominate the true philosophy that is infinitely beyond their capacity to forsee. They had sought a better way to live; without His divine ordinance. They would no longer simply be men, but sought to understand God by they’re own word.In the process of these diversions, they created many new and conflicting truths. They spread out to create their own realities on the earth under the authority of their imaginations. Rather than dominion with God, they inherited useless dominions of men. They’re spiritual tower had been thwarted. It was never completed and will never be completed by men. It is already completed by God. Babylon is doomed and reduced to mysterious babbling.The language of truth they lost to their divergent ideals. They moved on with pride, and looked to the inventions of their minds to achieve the goal that they believed had only temporarily eluded them. They still believed in their dreams and themselves; confident, proud, and frustrated with their detractors. They look to escape the curse; onward they go, looking for glory, and looking for the God they had crucified with their pride.As their new philosophies we’re made but not begotten, the religions of the past arose, and the foundation of the modern world began their fruition; blossoming in blood. To this day, the proponents of their respective truths misunderstand each other, and they battle for the supremacy that lay only in the Word from the very mouth of God. The word of God (Christ) confused and divided them.The story of the Tower of Babel is the super-natural condemnation of the mystery of Babylon. It is a mystery because it makes no sense. It is unreasonable. It is the ambition of man and his seducing spirit to create what already is, and was in the beginning, and will be forever. It is the babbling of foolish and darkened hearts. It is the philosophy that cannot be; the philosophy of man. It is the unneeded religion; the redundant and the nothing. It is not true, for it cannot be true. Man cannot create the light of reason, for it precedes him. He depends upon it first, in order to try to invent it. The Word created men; therefore men cannot create the Word.God alone is true and faithful. He is the light. His is the spirit of reason. His is the love that brings whole (holy) community and family; individually as well as collectively. His is the freedom of morality and virtue. His is the living. His and His alone is the light. He offers peace to those who have denied Him. They deny, yet He accepts. For those who accept Him, and ask Him to take His residence with them; He is the light of the world.The mystery of Babylon is in the contradiction; the ideal of the light from man. It defeats itself, and collapses under its own weight. It is the mystery of the illogical nature of the spirit of man and his refusal to worship what is to be worshiped. It is the spirit which says there is no truth, and then proposes that that is a true statement. It is the spirit that says there is no God, and in doing so becomes the God of his own will. It is the spirit of lies, from the father of lies.Isaiah 14; 12-16

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“How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cast down to the ground, you who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart:
”I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the pit.

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“Those who see you will gaze at you, and consider you, saying:
”Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook the kingdoms, who made the world as a wilderness and destroyed the cities, who did not open the house of his prisoners?’”Luke 14; 28-35, Jesus said:

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“For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first,
and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? Lest haply, after he
hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to
mock him, Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. Or
what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth
whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty
thousand? Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an
ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. So likewise, whosoever he be of you
that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. Salt is good: but
if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? It is neither fit for
the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”When you hear the story of Babel... think philosophy (spiritual language) more so than physical language. I personally think it is both. And it is the overlapping meanings and truisms of some of these ancient stories that leads me to conclude that they are supernatural in depth and origin.hope that wasn't too long...

God is not mean spirited. But he is just. You missed the point. It is difficult to grasp.God doesn't make life hard for us in the sense you imply. He made things in a certain way. He made them for perfection. For Himself. When we reject that, then we bring a hard life upon ourselves. But God does make life hard in this same way as well, though indirectly (and most sovereignly), because he created things to only work one way.He wants the best for us, and He knows what that is...If He allowed us to get away with our own plans for eternity (anything will be possible for them), then He would not be good. he would at that point be no different than a parent who gives his child anything the child wants.That's pretty much what we are (particularly in America); a bunch of spoiled rotten brats. Nobody likes a brat. Especially a brat.God offers to take responsibility for the mess (and did). Not just at Babel, but on the cross. Personally, I am glad that I accepted the invitation.You can know Him if you ask Him. Faith is only the mustard seed that you must swallow to open the mind enough to believe that He is there to ask. Once you meet Him, then it's not the kind of blind faith it takes to believe other worldviews.There are lots of lessons to learn from Babel. One, is that God will not allow man to do whatever he pleases. And that is because God is good and loving. The fact he allows us as much lee-way as He does, must be the result of patience born of an omniscient view of the whole show.Though we might interfere in all manner of details in one anothers lives... it appears that God (though omnipotent) is well aquainted with what corrections are actually necessary to stay in control. Jesus certainly demonstrated self control. And God saw fit to intervene only when necessary. He stepped in to history many times really and intervened. But not enough to mess with your free will.It is comforting to me to know that this universe has a referree. One who will restore some things after this life. Without that belief (in ultimate justice), how could I sacrifice anything in this life?Edited by scottness, : No reason given.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

Yes, very easily...If God is real, then the natural laws that you invoke for explaining the phenomenon of communication are His invention. Which means that he is ultimately responsible for their formation, even if we were given some power to influence the direction.The point I tried to make a few posts ago, is that God split us up (by His sovereignty) when we tried to create that which is undivisible from Him; 'the Word'. We divided ourselves don't you see? But ultimately it was God who divided us, by His sovereignty. The laws of reason and of nature, would not allow us to proceed (that is His doing). The Tower fell, and will always fall. The only standing tower is that of Christ... IMO.That is why I say that the Tower of Babel is more about philosophy than physical language. I do hope that someone will get the point. it is astonishing!Communication was present before humanity, so humanity is not responsible for communication.I think John said it, as well as it can be said: "In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. And the Word was God. ...and the Word became flesh."To me, anything else is just babbling. And I know a thing or two about babbling being the sinner that I am. Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

[/qs]"No matter how well Edenics 101 defends the Biblical thesis, it may not be true that ALL humans think in Edenic, and the output stage, or spoken language, is always a simple variation of the Edenic. There is one exception that proves the rule. The exception is the language of the African Hottentots. This isolated tribe speaks in an elaborate code of clicks and whistles -- not with the usual consonants (whose variants we shall soon study) nor the ordinary vowels (which even vary within neighborhoods of large cities). Are the non-speaking Hottentots truly human? Are they some sort of pre-Adamic spawn of the animal-Nachash who are lacking true divine souls (as some fear about sociopaths who have no divine conscience)?"[/qs]Dear Dr. Adequate, you raise an excellent example and a tremendous opportunity for me to make the point I raised in message 40 and previously in this thread.The language that the Tower of Babel is referring to is the language before liguisitic expression. The universal language of reason.We can use all kinds of characters or sounds or action etc. to express an idea to another person. But it is the ideas themselves; the spiritual ethereal concepts which remain the same. When we try to alter those things and re-invent logic as it were; it is then that we then find our Towers crashing to the ground in failure.If there is one message of the Bible that is present (and it is certainly present in the Tower of Babel) it is that being itself is founded on the nature of God.The New Testament litterally builds on this theme. The Rock Of Ages! The Holy Temple is Christ Himself! The only foundation for our being and our towers of enlightenment is Christ.Whatever reality is... it is Christ in Hebrew liguism.Jesus warned that many would come saying, "Here is the Christ, come and see!"A couple in Marin County near me, recently suggested that we all have a collective orgasm for peace. Perhaps I cannot persuade you to consider that the Tower of Babel is as I interpret it. And perhaps I cannot persuade you to consider that jesus Christ was actually God incarnate... But I assume we can agree that orgasm does not equal Christ.I think it is safe to say their tower is doomed to failure. Many might say 'Let's try it! We should try anything for peace!"My only question to them would be, "Anything?"How about putting your faith in Jesus and asking Him into your life, and seeing for yourself if He responds."Perhaps the Tower to Peace is not built by the democracies of mankind, but accepted or rejected in the heart of each individual man and woman as the foundation built by another who's glory we can never steal for ourselves.We want our Towers for our own glory. Yet I have found that it is free to any who ask for it, if they are in admission that they are not worthy to behold it.Just one mans opinion...

I must either be misunderstanding you, or you are living in the iceages (kidding you man!). You're well spoken.I did not presume to offer 'physical' evidence for a being that is Self described as Spirit. I thought it best to put in the 'if', so as not to offend the sensibilities of those emotionally attached to their worldviews. I am truely sorry if you are still offended.I would prefer to simply claim as fact that God does exist. That the natural universe is the finest proof! But I think that I must use some logic in order to make the connections. Is that a crime?I suppose that algebra is not acceptable to you because it often begins with the premise: 'If This... Then that!'Can we please be reasonable? You asked where the 'Word was mentioned'. Did you see the words one language that I highlighted?Now it appears to me, that the problem you are having in understanding me, is the very division caused by the difference in our worldviews. Our philosophies are not compatible. We are working against one another. We are not cooperating to build the Tower. Hence the point! Indeed I am Iceage! Well observed! And why is it that your speculative interpretation is accurate and mine is not? Can you read between the lines?Do you know why Jesus spoke in parables? He said, (Mt 13:13) "This is why I speak to them in parables: Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand."(Mt 13:35) So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world." How do you know that it is borrowed?That is not a skeptical examination Iceage, but a simple-minded and cyincal defense of your own worldview. Why can't the story be a shared experience of mankind, not worthy of remembrance for some, and worthy of re-telling for others?Why is it that you believe the story of Sumaria more accurately portrays the scene?What is remembered by a people is balanced upon the intention and the bias they hold.If anything, the Sumarian connection (as with the connections with 'The Flood' in other cultures) only goes to add credibility. It does not work in your favor in my opinion. To say this as a statement of fact (as you did), you must first assume that you 'know' the origin of nature. And whatever that origin is my dear brother... it is an assumption who's only anchor is ultimately in faith. At least that is the fact of the matter as we discuss these things in the 21st Century.There was only one man that I know of, who was bold enough to assert that you can know the truth. It was the same man who claimed to be the truth.We crucified Him for that, because we don't want to know the truth. We want to defend what we want to be true. Reality has a jagged edge, and illusions always collapse just as the Tower of Babel illustrates. You might even call the story... scientific theory that is demonstrated by experience.Peace to you...Edited by scottness, : SpellingEdited by scottness, : edit

I agree with you completely. Without a purpose or a reason, there is no basis for a what if. It is necessary, just as you said. Man must have a goal, in order to motivate his mind to find it.For example: If you don't like to think of your life as immoral, you can say, "If there is no God, then I am doing nothing wrong, and can eat, drink, and be merry" In this case, the 'reason' for the equation is clearly to sleep well in spite of an uneasy fear of eternal justice. So it is natural to hypothesize that God is a social construct to control the masses, rather than the construct, by which all things are measured.And since your actions (immoral or not) are facts, and can be proven to exist with a trail of evidence by cause and effect, then we might as well conclude (with the motivating reason) that they are 'simply reality', and that there is nothing more to the equation. They are not right or wrong.It's quite a Tower your building... And what 'reason' is used as evidence to anchor the hypothesis that The Tower of Babel is a borrowed story? What 'reason' do you have to believe that?Also, to put all of the chronological ducks in a row the way you do, you would have to assume that what are believed to be earlier texts, are more accurate simply based on the time of their appearence in print. It is admitedly a reasonable test, but can prove nothing.In your position, you really have to believe everything you hear from 'educated' men as gospel with the obvious exception of Biblical truth claims. Just remember that the greatest atrocities against mankind did not come from men and women who's stomachs were empty and void of the greatest learning. But from men and women who's stomachs were full, and had the greatest access to the academy.It reminds me of the materialist test that Jesus faced in the wilderness. "Turn these stones into bread", said Satan. Jesus replied, "Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word from the mouth of God."In regard to bias:How can you presume to remove 'bias' without a priori assumption that 'bias' is not right? Would that not just be another form of bias? I think not, because one need not close his mind to assume morality, because morality is itself priori. Really?Do you think consensus can make the sun dissapear?

The important part was when He claimed to be the truth. But I would love to discuss the others you refer to.Who are they? Yes! You know... on the paper they got at Kinkos. I assume there must be some record of the Surmarian version of the story in some printed form? Certainly Larni is not arguing against Hebrew documentation by scroll with stories passed down orally! That is what the educated have been doing for the entire generation of modern man. You can take it to the bank! That's not an argument, but an assertion. Please explain...Build us a Tower to reality (God) Dr. Adequate.

Well yes I see your point, but you missed mine...You may not be an elephant, but what are you?You do exist don't you? You must be something! You must have some beliefs of some kind.Perhaps not!

You'll get no argument from me on that point! Besides being biased against bias (too logical and obvious a contradiction for you to grasp in your present state of mind), let me offer you a couple of other examples. I offer them, because I believe in miracles, and am in constant need of another myself, even more so than you (please note: that that was a compliment).Where were we? Ah yes... Bias!Seems to me that the laws of physics are pretty biased! They do not compromise or bow for the undecided!In fact you might call the laws of physics fanatical by their very nature; harsh even! Fundamental! Base! Obvious! Restrictive! Unyeilding! Repressive! etc. etc.................................Yet these laws that confine, somehow permit the perplexity of infinitude. Either that or the infinite permits them! Now I am going off course again, but the point is.......as restrictive as they are... they give us life! We are beings! We be!But since I predict (I hope falsely) that there is no satisfying a cynical mind such as yours, I know that this is a low blow to your esteemed and enlightened venacular. So let me offer another counter-argument.If any bias is bad, does that mean that you are not biased as a means of being good?Are you biased against murder?Are you biased against rape?Are you biased against theft?Are you biased against lies?It seems to me that being requires that we be very biased. Some of those requirements are even imposed upon us, such as the strength of gravity relative to the speed of light.Change that, andno soup for you!So tell me again... is bias bad?But what do I know? I am biased about all of this spouting!Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

First of all, this is the first time you have asked me, not the third (if you have a problem with NJ, I am not suprised)Secondly, I haven't the foggiest idea when it was being built. But if you don't mind my humble correction... as the story goes, it was never completed.That hasn't stopped men from trying though (let's get that straight, since you are strongly interested in the proper interpretation of assumed facts)!Psst...Shh... (quiet now)...
Btw, some of the others here would call that bias.Men keep trying to rebuild it...Communism, Capitalism, Hedonism, Kingdoms, and various and sundry systems to bring about a saving knowledge of reality and a life of peace.Some even believe that science is not another house of cards (ie. a Tower of Babel).And third, not much has changed, whether it is several thousand, or several million years of history.Man is still an obnoxious and rebellious beast no matter what your angle on him as a species.IMO...

They not only have a date range... but a date as well. As to what those are precisely, is immaterial to me. These stories are confirmed by other cultures. I am content to know that they are ancient.All of history is divided by the appearence of Christ and is either before His reign, or durring (the first days, and the last). That kind of time scale is more relevant to the subject at hand. Your using relative time, to interpret and critique things with an eternal and truthful nature.The gosamer threads of Biblical understanding mean more to me than the concrete proof of worldy wisdom. Because below the surface of the visible world, is an invisible world which binds it together. Connections you can see if your eyes are open. Or do you operate under the delusion that when we found the atom, we had reached the final frontier?Do you think that if something is beyond your understanding, that it doesn't exist? If you need full proof and understanding of everything before believing it, then how do you know that you are here?Seriously! Where is here? And who are you?Now I will concede that to a person with the mind of an attorney, dates and times (facts and figures) are thickly woven cables with which to animate puppets and protect their unbelief. And it is clear you assume there are puppets among us. You find yourself (not accidentally) in the court of public debate right?What is it about the Bible that you find so threatening, that you find the need to tear it down?And isn't it telling that such a nobel creature as yourself cannot tear down the True Temple, and neither can you build one that satisfies the treacherous demands of History!Your borrowed psychological theories and scientific methodologies are poor and empty systematized religions with which to elevate yourself above the unwashed masses.As Jesus said to the teachers of the law in that day (paraphrased) "You clean the outside of the dish (with your ceremonies and ritual observances), but inwardly you are full of wickedness. You should first give what is on the inside to the poor (confess your sins and tell the truth and stop hiding behind your fig leaves) then you will be accepted into real and open relationship with your fellow man and everything will be clean for you."You place way too much confidence in the houses of cards built by other men which exist to intimidate you into submission by way of public humiliation and scorn. Take up your cross instead. The scorn is not nearly as intimidating as you have been led to believe. God will give you the words to speak, but it will not be you speaking.Off to work...

I'll be gone for a couple days, but here is your answer...Because the king of Babylon not only represents human and earthly kings, but the God of this age (lucifer/satan) as well. The armies of darkness are referred to by the prophets both as men, and their seducing spirit.Very much the same way Ezekiel has prophesied against Pharoah...Ezekiel 29:1-7: Revelation 19:11-19:

Well I am no Jew nor scholar.But the Apostle Paul was:Also, the other pharisees of the day seemed to understand and accuse in front of the crowds in the same context: I believe the Pharisees must have been playing to the beliefs of the masses. So this idea that the world was ruled by the 'bright one' was well understood. We had given over control to him by not obeying God and giving iin to the seduction of sin as it were.Jesus also confirmed this (context included):As for Ezekiel and the monster of the nile, you said:I don't know that rhymes in the English language tranlate to confirmation of interpretation. Perhaps you are only trying to mock me? To present the connections I think are valid as luducrous?Consider: Now, that passage may refer to a crocodile in your interpretation, but the writers of the Bible didn't think so. From David to Ezekiel and Isaiah to John. I think the Biblical picture of this serpent called leviathan, is quite clear and thorough. It is as descriptive as it could be! I hope that I have adequately defended what I see in the scriptures on this point. Edited by scottness, : No reason given.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

Thanks for giving me something to sink my teeth into when I'm not so busy with Christmas...I'll be back!

Merry christmas spiderman. It's nice to be speaking with you again btw.Now enough with the pleasantries... Let's get a Hebrew to interpret this for us... bear with me.2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.Acts 23: 6 Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead." 7 When he said this, a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. 8 (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.) 9 There was a great uproar, and some of the teachers of the law who were Pharisees stood up and argued vigorously. "We find nothing wrong with this man," they said. "What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?"You can say what you want about Greek, Latin and Hebrew etc. Paul was a Roman citizen, and a hebrew by birth who had lived in Greece and new the languages. As he said, he was a Pharasee of the highest credentials. And he interpreted these things in this same manner I present to you. He was looking at it through the lens of the Holy Spirit which 'is the solution' that reveals the scripture's meaning, just like a solution to a puzzle.The serpent in Genesis is the same serpent that symbolizes satan elsewhere in the Bible. I don't even know how you can question it as the connections are easy to see once they are pointed out. That's what prophets (ministers) are supposed to do; point it out. The Genesis serpent is cast down to the ground (earth, or physical world) after masquerading as an 'enlightening' figure to Eve. It was simultaneously Satan's fall, as well as mankinds.God had given one command of the do not variety. And God was the light of the world. But another thought (spirit or 'angel') entered their minds eye. And it spoke of wisdom in direct contradiction of God.(btw here's an aside for another thread... Eve was given the name 'Eve' by her husband after the fall. When God created them, he called their name Adam. god created us with equality as men and women. It was because of what we had done that sexism now entered the scene.)The language of scripture changes to add texture and complete the picture. It does not change to create contradiction as you imply. And when we see additional changes in the form of translation, I think it is only the sovereignty of God that allows those changes to make even more clear (though more complex) the truth, in regard to the concepts being conveyed.The serpent is really an Angel. The fact that Venus was called Lucifer in the Latin is irrelevant, as it is the meaning of the name that conveys the concept.Now although the Devil, or Lucifer, or Beelzebub (or any of his other names) is a spiritual creature, he manifests himself through physical creatures so that he can influence the material world.Jesus knew this: You see? We are either followers of Satan or of God. That's not something we like to believe in this modern era because Satan has convinced us that we think our own thoughts and are autonomous(ah... the thought life! Where the spirit world enters the material). Both are spirits who claim to be God! One is the true light, and the other is a delusion. That is why Jesus said, 'I am the light of the world'.Consider his words here: There was a time before the fall of angels and men Spidy... before the great star (Lucifer) fell from the heavens with all of his angels and was cast to the ground. Where were you?Job 38: 4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. 5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone-- 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy? 8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb, 9 when I made the clouds its garment and wrapped it in thick darkness, 10 when I fixed limits for it and set its doors and bars in place, 11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt'.That last line gives me goose bumps when presenting it to you in this setting and context. I don't think your disagreement is with me. It is with God. Err on the side of caution. Tread lightly!----------------------Now I am going to go into ground that is more of a personal interpretation than it is orthodoxy. But I believe it is correct and so do others. John and Isaiah understood it. So did David!When talking about the sea creature, we must keep in mind that mankind is that sea. So the language is symbolic even when it is used litterally. That's the hidden nature of parables. It's not hidden at all if you have the solution.Psalm 104: 26 There the ships go to and fro, and the leviathan, which you formed to frolic there.Revelation 17:15 Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.The prostitute is all the mystery religions, the false systems. And 'the beast' (antichrist) who emerges in the fianl scenes, will hate her.I believe that this suggests that the antichrist (masquerading as light) will capitalize on the wars between religions and seek to put an end to the bloodshed. This will not suprisingly seem enlightening to many.The only problem is... Secular Humanism is no different than spiritual humanism (pantheism). It may call itself secular, but all philosophy is an attempt to reveal ultimate truth and is therfore theological in nature. Even if we claim to be unable to know ultimate truth and pin our warfare on the search for it, we've still made a claim. We're forced to prophesy something as true regardless of what it is! It's inescapable! It's just the way God set things up and reveals His ultimate sovereignty irrespective of how distant He may seem. He's been there the whole time, right at the very foundation of our thinking. After all... where did you think your thoughts come from?So the sea is mankind as a whole, the ships (or vessels, temples of the Holy Spirit) are the individual members of the body. That body is either in christ, or in the greater beast and army of evil only one member of whom will rise out of that sea to become the antichrist!The story of Noah also captures this imagery, as God shuts the door of the ark (an interesting point) just as none will be plucked out of Jesus hand after they are sealed by the Holy Spirit and 'delivered' out of the jaws of death.The ark tossing on the sea is ripe with symbolism and fits so nicely as an example of the complimentary spiritual meaning of scripture that underlies the appearent story. What's even more astonishing is when the stories are true lterally as well as figuratively. it's the overlap of truth, dimension after dimension that leaves me in awe. We don't even have to understand it all or believe that the flood was real in material terms. We just have to know that it's true!Jesus calms the sea, and in the midst of a tempest, saves His people from certain death! The Leviathan churns the waters, but God divides them and let's His people go free, all while bringing the waters back in upon the encroaching enemy!I think there was more I wanted to say in response to you reply, but the kids are up and wouldn't you know it? Santa came last night!Gifts should be recognized as such and a spirit of humility should surround us far more than it commonly does. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning