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Author Topic:   By Grace or by Works Remix
Philip
Member (Idle past 4752 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 14 of 25 (346998)
09-06-2006 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
09-03-2006 9:40 AM


By Grace or by Works Remix
Do people become spiritually attuned and ready for a meeting with God through our own efforts and behaviors, or do we become attuned and in common union (communion) with God through His Spirit and His grace?
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
I don't think I'd really claim any "fruitful works" as a direct mechanism for becoming spiritually attuned.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by purpledawn, posted 09-07-2006 9:40 AM Philip has replied

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 4752 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 19 of 25 (348965)
09-13-2006 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by purpledawn
09-07-2006 9:40 AM


Re: Fruitful Works
I know I'm commanded (to do good) ... but I don't know how (Romans 7, KJV). But if (peradventure) God's grace (alone) quickens me (Romans 8) to be fruitful, methinks His grace simultaneously helps my reconciliation into His Holy places (to various extents at least).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by purpledawn, posted 09-07-2006 9:40 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by purpledawn, posted 09-14-2006 7:05 AM Philip has replied

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 4752 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 21 of 25 (350865)
09-20-2006 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by purpledawn
09-14-2006 7:05 AM


Re: Fruitful Works
purpledawn writes:
You didn't answer my question. What do you consider fruitful works to be?
Presently I hyper-simplify fruitful works (for me) to be:
1) Believe (i.e., 'pray', 'rely', 'incline', 'praise', etc.) on the name of the Son of God (i.e., "Savior", "Resurrection", etc.)
2) Love one another ("prefer the brethren", "compassion for orphans, widows, strangers", etc.)
... Of course you may disagree that "fruitful works" aren't the same as these absolute "commandments" (1John 3) in the Bible. Or that fruitful works are "9-12 fruits of the spirit": love, joy, peace, lonsuffering, faith, meekness, temperance, crucifying the flesh with affections and lusts, etc. (Galatians, KJV)
(Off topic: Frankly, these fruitful works haven't really manifested well in me of late ... unfruitful works of unbelief, pride, and lust seem to war strongly against these holy affections/"fruitful works")

DISCLAIMER: No representation is made that the quality of scientific and metaphysical statements written is greater than the quality of those statements written by anyone else.

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 Message 20 by purpledawn, posted 09-14-2006 7:05 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by purpledawn, posted 09-21-2006 7:35 AM Philip has replied

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 4752 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 24 of 25 (351015)
09-21-2006 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by purpledawn
09-21-2006 7:35 AM


Re: Fruitful Works
purpledawn writes:
It is by our own effort...
Sounds great in a legalistic Lordship but the tone negates God's omnipotent grace and mercy as the *raw mechanism* for my being a "vessel of mercy" vs. a "vessel of wrath".
But, I stand corrected by stating "direct mechanism", above. The word "direct" seems to imply robotic fruit bearing. “Effort” might be validated as more of a “direct” mechanism of fruit-bearing. Effort also implies redeeming heartache and pain in a cursed world.
Of course, I personally subscribe to Salvation alone mutating into good works. The *silly* gospel of grace alone (Christ's death burial and resurrection into you and I) not only saves souls but transforms (mutates) the soul into faith and love (... both of which I still perceive as God’s Works only)
Notwithstanding; Scriptures fully command EFFORT toward "fruitful works" as you state. I just give up on my own efforts if God hides his face, anyway. If he doesn’t continue his good work in me till the day of Christ (Phil 1.6) then I’ve got no Holy Spirit.
The book of Romans stresses Grace over Works: i.e., "Let God be true and every man (and woman) a liar". Or bluntly realizing that the scriptures are saying: "I'm a liar, you're a liar, we're all liars". I don't trust my puny self-flatteries ... at all. There remain serious fallacies and heresies about “our own effort”:
1) Free-will demeans the cross-sufferings and resurrection power of the Christ "while we were yet sinners" (Rom 5.8 KJV) which still seems to me the only raw mechanism for bearing (spiritual) fruit.
2) Free-will must be predestined anyway if God is omnipotent (Rom 8,9)
3) Gospel-grace is for broken-sinners like me, not *sinless-vicars* like the Pope.
4) Free-will (a.k.a. “our own effort”) seems to me just a silly evangelical misnomer for “laws warring in my members” (Romans):
Here’s “my own effort”: the law of faith, law of sin and death, the law of Moses, the law of God, the law of the mind, the law of when I would do good evil is present in me, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, and (finally), the law of love . all these laws are viciously struggling to become “our own effort” as you stated.

DISCLAIMER: No representation is made that the quality of scientific and metaphysical statements written is greater than the quality of those statements written by anyone else.

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