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Author Topic:   By Grace or by Works Remix
Phat
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Posts: 18351
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1 of 25 (346194)
09-03-2006 9:40 AM


Goodness Gracious Remix:
I have observed countless posts here at EvC regarding the essence of religion and behavior.
My hope is that this topic can provide a forum for additional discussion regarding basic Christian doctorine as interpreted by the participant.
While I want to limit this discussion to Christianity, I realize that as individuals, we each have beliefs which are intrinsically valid based upon our own heartfelt interpretations of them. Some believe that the Bible is innerrent and infallible.
Others believe that the Bible is but one of many books and writings which serve as an overall moral guideline.
In this topic, I want to focus our discussion primarily at the following issue:
Do people become spiritually attuned and ready for a meeting with God through our own efforts and behaviors, or do we become attuned and in common union (communion) with God through His Spirit and His grace?
Faith and Belief, please.

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by ringo, posted 09-03-2006 12:02 PM Phat has replied
 Message 8 by jar, posted 09-05-2006 12:45 PM Phat has replied
 Message 14 by Philip, posted 09-06-2006 2:47 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 18 by GDR, posted 09-07-2006 10:36 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 22 by ThingsChange, posted 09-21-2006 7:33 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18351
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 3 of 25 (346204)
09-03-2006 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminNWR
09-03-2006 9:46 AM


Is our behavior entirely due to our own efforts?
The Augsburg Confession says:
First, that our works cannot reconcile God or merit forgiveness of sins, grace, and justification, but that we obtain this only by faith when we believe that we are received into favor for Christs sake, who alone has been set forth the Mediator and Propitiation, 1 Tim. 2, 6, in order that the Father may be reconciled through Him. Whoever, therefore, trusts that by works he merits grace, despises the merit and grace of Christ, and seeks a way to God without Christ, by human strength, although Christ has said of Himself: I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. John 14, 6.
One point of view that I have heard is that God plays no favorites---He has provided a means for salvation and communion (with Him) for all of us, and that it is by our behavior and efforts that we will accomplish our best spiritual and practical effort in this life.
Another point of view (and belief) that I have heard states that
C.A.R.M. writes:
Justification is by faith. True faith results in regeneration of the sinner which, in turn, results in good works. But it is not these works that earn our place with God nor keep it. Jesus accomplished that on the cross. All that we need, we have in Jesus. All we need to do to be saved, to be justified, is to truly believe in what God has done for us in Jesus on the cross. This true belief with justification before God and regeneration in the new believer, results in good works.
The other basic point of view states that our salvation is not earned nor maintained by our own efforts.
Personally, I believe that behavior on a daily basis is very important. I believe that my behavior is not entirely of my own efforts but that my relationship with God on a daily basis enables my behavior to honor Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminNWR, posted 09-03-2006 9:46 AM AdminNWR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by purpledawn, posted 09-05-2006 9:23 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18351
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 5 of 25 (346623)
09-05-2006 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by ringo
09-03-2006 12:02 PM


You can tune a piano but you can't tuna fish!
Do people become spiritually attuned and ready for a meeting with God through our own efforts and behaviors, or do we become attuned and in common union (communion) with God through His Spirit and His grace?
Ringo writes:
A good tree produces good fruit. It doesn't have to "believe" in the gardener.
This is true. However...a good tree has roots which tap in to a source that feeds the tree.
Going with this analogy, some believe that our source is the very Spirit of God infusing us with a dynamic energy and sense of purpose. Others believe that human wisdom builds on other human wisdom and that ideas are expressed through human beings who have read or heard the ideas of other human beings.
Edited by Phat, : ten thumbs

“There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way” --C.S.Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ringo, posted 09-03-2006 12:02 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by ringo, posted 09-05-2006 12:01 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18351
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 9 of 25 (346947)
09-06-2006 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
09-05-2006 12:45 PM


You got me to look it up.....
I had to look up the origin of this poem, and found the following information at Wikipedia.
Wiki writes:
"Jabberwocky" is a poem (of nonsense verse) found in Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There (1871) by Lewis Carroll. It is generally considered to be one of the greatest nonsense poems written in the English language.
The inspiration for the Jabberwock allegedly came from a tree in the gardens of Christ Church, Oxford, where Carroll was a mathematician (under his real name of Charles Lutwidge Dodgson). The tree in question is large and ancient with many sprawling, twisted branches somewhat suggestive of tentacles, or the Hydra of Greek mythology.
The poem is particularly interesting because, although it contains many nonsensical words, the structure is perfectly consistent with classic English poetry. The sentence structure is accurate (another aspect that has been challenging to reproduce in other languages), the poetic forms are observed (e.g. quatrain verse, rhymed, iambic meter), and a "story" is somewhat discernible in the flow of events. According to Alice in Through the Looking Glass, "Somehow it seems to fill my head with ideas - only I don't exactly know what they are!"
Now what I'm trying to do is to understand how this ties in with my topic.
So....Jar...do you believe that literary education and exposure to classical art and wisdom of others (such as Lewis Carroll) is a mitsvah?
In other words, as Alice said, "Somehow it seems to fill my head with ideas - only I don't exactly know what they are!".
This goes along with your philosophy of encouraging people to think rather than telling them what to think.
When I talk to young people, I like to encourage and stimulate thinking. Usually, our topic is tied in with Christian philosophy/theology since that is the type of volunteer that I am, but I would have no problem using a poem such as this one as a topic starter and icebreaker.
Edited by Phat, : clarification

“There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way” --C.S.Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 09-05-2006 12:45 PM jar has not replied

  
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