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Author Topic:   By Grace or by Works Remix
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 16 of 25 (347179)
09-07-2006 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Taz
09-07-2006 12:23 AM


gasby writes:
"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."
What about masochists and saddists?
I don't think the fruit analogy applies. According to Matthew's gospel, we are judged by how we meet our neighbours needs - not by catering to "perversions".
If you don't like to eat rotten fruit, then don't feed rotten fruit to your family or your guests, don't sell rotten fruit, don't give rotten fruit to charity, etc.
You know, a lot of people would take this statement as offensive, considering how many southeast asians there are.
I don't see how. I was talking about fruit in general. Why southeast Asians specifically?
Have you tried it? What is your opinion on the fruit?
No, I haven't tried it and I have no opinion. I said, "If you don't like durians, don't grow them." Much like, "If you don't like being hit by a hammer, don't hit yourself (or anybody else) with a hammer."

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This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 17 of 25 (347244)
09-07-2006 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Philip
09-06-2006 2:47 PM


Fruitful Works
Phat writes:
Do people become spiritually attuned and ready for a meeting with God through our own efforts and behaviors, or do we become attuned and in common union (communion) with God through His Spirit and His grace?
quote:
I don't think I'd really claim any "fruitful works" as a direct mechanism for becoming spiritually attuned.
What do you consider fruitful works to be? If you're thinking good deeds, then no I wouldn't consider those type of things to help one become spiritually attuned.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Philip, posted 09-06-2006 2:47 PM Philip has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Philip, posted 09-13-2006 11:46 PM purpledawn has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 18 of 25 (347253)
09-07-2006 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
09-03-2006 9:40 AM


Phat writes:
Do people become spiritually attuned and ready for a meeting with God through our own efforts and behaviors, or do we become attuned and in common union (communion) with God through His Spirit and His grace?
Hmmmmm. Which came first; the chicken or the egg? CS Lewis says, (as close as I remember it) that, "There are two kinds of people, those who say to God They will be done, and those to who God says to thy will be done".
We are what we choose to be. God wants us to choose Him by choosing to embrace love, goodness, joy and truth, and by choosing to reject hatred, evil, sorrow and lies. In the final analysis I believe that it is all about where our heart is.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

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Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 19 of 25 (348965)
09-13-2006 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by purpledawn
09-07-2006 9:40 AM


Re: Fruitful Works
I know I'm commanded (to do good) ... but I don't know how (Romans 7, KJV). But if (peradventure) God's grace (alone) quickens me (Romans 8) to be fruitful, methinks His grace simultaneously helps my reconciliation into His Holy places (to various extents at least).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by purpledawn, posted 09-07-2006 9:40 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 20 of 25 (349004)
09-14-2006 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Philip
09-13-2006 11:46 PM


Re: Fruitful Works
You didn't answer my question. What do you consider fruitful works to be?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Philip, posted 09-13-2006 11:46 PM Philip has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Philip, posted 09-20-2006 11:22 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 21 of 25 (350865)
09-20-2006 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by purpledawn
09-14-2006 7:05 AM


Re: Fruitful Works
purpledawn writes:
You didn't answer my question. What do you consider fruitful works to be?
Presently I hyper-simplify fruitful works (for me) to be:
1) Believe (i.e., 'pray', 'rely', 'incline', 'praise', etc.) on the name of the Son of God (i.e., "Savior", "Resurrection", etc.)
2) Love one another ("prefer the brethren", "compassion for orphans, widows, strangers", etc.)
... Of course you may disagree that "fruitful works" aren't the same as these absolute "commandments" (1John 3) in the Bible. Or that fruitful works are "9-12 fruits of the spirit": love, joy, peace, lonsuffering, faith, meekness, temperance, crucifying the flesh with affections and lusts, etc. (Galatians, KJV)
(Off topic: Frankly, these fruitful works haven't really manifested well in me of late ... unfruitful works of unbelief, pride, and lust seem to war strongly against these holy affections/"fruitful works")

DISCLAIMER: No representation is made that the quality of scientific and metaphysical statements written is greater than the quality of those statements written by anyone else.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by purpledawn, posted 09-21-2006 7:35 AM Philip has replied

  
ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5926 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 22 of 25 (350939)
09-21-2006 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
09-03-2006 9:40 AM


or or and?
Do people become spiritually attuned and ready for a meeting with God through our own efforts and behaviors, or do we become attuned and in common union (communion) with God through His Spirit and His grace?
It is interesting that you put the "or" separator between the two statements, assuming that it is not an "and" (i.e. need both). A Bible-inerrant believer would argue that there are verses that support each one separately and both together, therefore, it must be both.
P.S. "works" is doing what Jesus asks. That would include evangelicalism, which is what riles-up atheists so much.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 23 of 25 (350941)
09-21-2006 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Philip
09-20-2006 11:22 PM


Re: Fruitful Works
I'm trying to remember what my train of thought was when I first responded to you Message 14.
I don't think I'd really claim any "fruitful works" as a direct mechanism for becoming spiritually attuned.
Works as used in the NT refers to actions, things you physically do (i.e. giving money to the poor, religious rituals, visiting the sick). There can be good works or bad works.
When something is fruitful it means it produces. So when you say fruitful works, all it says is that you did something. It doesn't mean that what you did is good or bad. Just whatever action you were doing produced what you were trying to do.
So no I wouldn't agree that belief/unbelief, love, lust, or pride are works.
I also wouldn't call the fruit of the spirit "works" either.
Galations 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
IMO, the Holy Spirit operates within us to show us what needs to be changed (i.e. throw off the old). As those old unacceptable thoughts and behaviors give way to right thoughts and behavior we exude the fruit of the spirit. So as we mature spiritually our actions should show all the fruits of the spirit.
From what you've said concerning unbelief, pride, and lust; the Holy Spirit has brought to your attention thoughts and behaviours you need to work on. So you are at a point of deciding whether to do what is necessary to change or continue as you were.
But even though you are battling unbelief, pride, and lust; that doesn't mean you don't do good works or that you produce bad fruit. You're still working on finetuning your spirituality. It is a journey.
So in relation to the question in the OP:
Do people become spiritually attuned and ready for a meeting with God through our own efforts and behaviors, or do we become attuned and in common union (communion) with God through His Spirit and His grace?
I think it is a combination of the Holy Spirit and our own efforts. It is by our own effort that we decide to say yes or no to change.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Philip, posted 09-20-2006 11:22 PM Philip has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Philip, posted 09-21-2006 12:36 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 24 of 25 (351015)
09-21-2006 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by purpledawn
09-21-2006 7:35 AM


Re: Fruitful Works
purpledawn writes:
It is by our own effort...
Sounds great in a legalistic Lordship but the tone negates God's omnipotent grace and mercy as the *raw mechanism* for my being a "vessel of mercy" vs. a "vessel of wrath".
But, I stand corrected by stating "direct mechanism", above. The word "direct" seems to imply robotic fruit bearing. “Effort” might be validated as more of a “direct” mechanism of fruit-bearing. Effort also implies redeeming heartache and pain in a cursed world.
Of course, I personally subscribe to Salvation alone mutating into good works. The *silly* gospel of grace alone (Christ's death burial and resurrection into you and I) not only saves souls but transforms (mutates) the soul into faith and love (... both of which I still perceive as God’s Works only)
Notwithstanding; Scriptures fully command EFFORT toward "fruitful works" as you state. I just give up on my own efforts if God hides his face, anyway. If he doesn’t continue his good work in me till the day of Christ (Phil 1.6) then I’ve got no Holy Spirit.
The book of Romans stresses Grace over Works: i.e., "Let God be true and every man (and woman) a liar". Or bluntly realizing that the scriptures are saying: "I'm a liar, you're a liar, we're all liars". I don't trust my puny self-flatteries ... at all. There remain serious fallacies and heresies about “our own effort”:
1) Free-will demeans the cross-sufferings and resurrection power of the Christ "while we were yet sinners" (Rom 5.8 KJV) which still seems to me the only raw mechanism for bearing (spiritual) fruit.
2) Free-will must be predestined anyway if God is omnipotent (Rom 8,9)
3) Gospel-grace is for broken-sinners like me, not *sinless-vicars* like the Pope.
4) Free-will (a.k.a. “our own effort”) seems to me just a silly evangelical misnomer for “laws warring in my members” (Romans):
Here’s “my own effort”: the law of faith, law of sin and death, the law of Moses, the law of God, the law of the mind, the law of when I would do good evil is present in me, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, and (finally), the law of love . all these laws are viciously struggling to become “our own effort” as you stated.

DISCLAIMER: No representation is made that the quality of scientific and metaphysical statements written is greater than the quality of those statements written by anyone else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by purpledawn, posted 09-21-2006 7:35 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 25 of 25 (355161)
10-08-2006 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
09-05-2006 12:45 PM


'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
'Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!'
He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought--
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.
And as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.
'And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
Please explain.

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