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Author
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Topic: Just What is (and what is wrong with) Political Correctness?
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 216 of 302 (342497)
08-22-2006 8:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 145 by Faith
08-22-2006 10:25 AM
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Re: mr manners (oops)
quote:
I'm "Scarlet" -- a racist I guess? -- because of what I've been saying here, though I see not one racist word in any of it myself.
Remember when you poo-pooed people who raised a fuss over the names that we have given to foreigners, saying that it's no big deal because "every society has names for foreigners."? I then pointed out that most of the time those "names for foreigners" were perjorative and demeaning. You then went on the hastily back away from your original statement by suddenly changing the subject from "names for foreigners" to how we've changed the spelling and promounciation of the names of cities and holy books. Maybe you aren't a racist, but there has been a noticeable xenophobic vibe from you.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 145 by Faith, posted 08-22-2006 10:25 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 218 by Faith, posted 08-22-2006 8:42 PM | | nator has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 217 of 302 (342498)
08-22-2006 8:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 149 by Asgara
08-22-2006 10:31 AM
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Re: Misunderstanding
quote:
I "believe" you are misreading Schraf's post. She is saying that denegrating language USE to be normal in what was considered polite society. It is the work of those that Faith and Robin are whining about that made people realize that these words DO dehumanize people and are WRONG to use.
Exactly.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 149 by Asgara, posted 08-22-2006 10:31 AM | | Asgara has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 219 of 302 (342503)
08-22-2006 8:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 170 by Brian
08-22-2006 12:46 PM
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Re: PC mad
quote:
Perhaps the daftest thing we have in schools now is that we should not split classes into groups numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 anymore, or group A, group B, group C, because it suggests that group 1 or group A are somehow superior to the others. The way round this is to have a group 1, and a group A, and a group Alpha
Well, it depends upon how the groups are chosen. If people count off, then it's a pretty random distribution and it shouldn't matter. But if groups are chosen by a teacher, then it might have a different connotation to the kids. I do remember reading about a study dome where they took a group of children, divided them into two groups. Each group had a similar distribution of slower, average, and bright students, but they told the kids in one of the groups that they were "gifted" and had been chosen because of their special abilities. That group tended to outperform the other group, even though the makeup of the groups were the same, and they were each doing the same work. So, perception makes a difference in performance, although how much this evidence translates to what you are talking about, I don't know. Not being able to say "brainstorm" and "blackboard" is just retarded.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 170 by Brian, posted 08-22-2006 12:46 PM | | Brian has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Re: It is not PC to be PC
quote:
Sure, but this is not about rights.
Except for your right "not to give a damn", correct?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 189 by robinrohan, posted 08-22-2006 1:50 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Re: PC and Public-Spiritedness
quote:
It's about the self-esteem of that group.
No, it is about respect.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 193 by robinrohan, posted 08-22-2006 2:02 PM | | robinrohan has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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quote:
We don't use 'guys' so much over here but my experience of living in the Mid-West and Central Texas was that it was both male-specific and gender-neutral.
Sort of. "Man" and "guy", and "he" are not gender neutral terms, regardless of how either of them were used in the past. From Hofstadter's Metamagical Themas:
In 1972, two sociologists at Drake University, Joseph Schneider and Sally Hacker, decided to test the hypothesis that man is generally understood to embrace woman. Some three hundred college students were asked to select from magazines and newspapers a variety of pictures that would appropriately illustrate the different chapters of a sociology textbook being prepared for publication. Half the students were assigned chapter headings like ``Social Man'', ``Industrial Man'', and ``Political Man''. The other half was given different but corresponding headings like ``Society'', ``Industrial Life'', and ``Political Behavior''. Analysis of the pictures selected revealed that in the minds of students of both sexes use of the word man evoked, to a statistically significant degree, images of males only --- filtering out recognition of women's participation in these major areas of life --- whereas the corresponding headings without man evoked images of both males and females. In some instances the differences reached magnitudes of 30 to 40 per cent. The authors concluded, `This is rather convincing evidence that when you use the word man generically, people do tend to think male, and tend not to think female.
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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quote:
She's not a man as you use the word today. I, along with others, are perfectly content to use the -man suffix in a gender-neutral way.
There have been some very convincing studies that show that most people don't, in fact, use it as a neutral.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 211 by MangyTiger, posted 08-22-2006 5:28 PM | | MangyTiger has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 235 of 302 (342527)
08-22-2006 9:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 232 by jar
08-22-2006 9:45 PM
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quote:
Yeah, I remember reading about that study and laughing. Shows you can get damn near anything funded.
What's that supposed to mean. It is good research.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 232 by jar, posted 08-22-2006 9:45 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 236 by jar, posted 08-22-2006 9:50 PM | | nator has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 240 of 302 (342540)
08-22-2006 10:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 218 by Faith
08-22-2006 8:42 PM
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examples
quote:
I wasn't thinking of such terms when I said we all have names for foreigners, but of course you would think of them and try to stick them on me.
Perhaps I acted too hastily. What terms for foreigners were you thinking of? You never have given any examples, you know. Names for cities and holy books are not names for foreigners.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 218 by Faith, posted 08-22-2006 8:42 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 241 of 302 (342541)
08-22-2006 10:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 223 by Faith
08-22-2006 9:20 PM
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Re: Intellectual freedom meets resistance from lefties
quote:
What he is doing is affirming the right of students to an education free from ALL political indoctrination in the classroom, both right and left, which right now is heavily, intimidatingly and unethically practiced by many supposed educators and is far and away predominantly leftist.
And your experience of the school and University system in the last couple of decades has consisted of what, exactly?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 223 by Faith, posted 08-22-2006 9:20 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 243 of 302 (342546)
08-22-2006 10:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 236 by jar
08-22-2006 9:50 PM
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quote:
It is a classic example of designing a survey to get the results you want.
1) It's not a survey. 2) The whole point of the study is that the widely-accepted premise that "man" is a gender neutral term is false. Can you please explain how the experimental protocol was so biased that it invalidated the results?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 236 by jar, posted 08-22-2006 9:50 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 246 by jar, posted 08-22-2006 10:39 PM | | nator has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 244 of 302 (342547)
08-22-2006 10:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 237 by ringo
08-22-2006 9:51 PM
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quote:
Pick one: My ancestors left Germany a hundred years ago.
I'm Jewish.
A and B.
I'm a closet Nazi.
LOL!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 237 by ringo, posted 08-22-2006 9:51 PM | | ringo has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 245 of 302 (342548)
08-22-2006 10:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 242 by tudwell
08-22-2006 10:23 PM
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Re: More PC gone mad
quote:
Politcal correctness is good at its heart (to not needlessly offend people), but sometimes it just goes overboard,
Yes, but PC was not the issue here. Poor vocabulary was.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 242 by tudwell, posted 08-22-2006 10:23 PM | | tudwell has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 249 of 302 (342567)
08-22-2006 11:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 246 by jar
08-22-2006 10:39 PM
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quote:
Well, the whole concept that the terms used were comparable. Given the terms used I would have bet on the results.
So you agree with the conclusions of the study; that "man" is not a neutral term. But tell me, how would you have designed the study? What chapter titles would you have chosen that would have made them "comparable"? Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 246 by jar, posted 08-22-2006 10:39 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 250 by jar, posted 08-22-2006 11:16 PM | | nator has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2199 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 251 of 302 (342577)
08-22-2006 11:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 250 by jar
08-22-2006 11:16 PM
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quote:
They used the term Man in an artificial way that provided the results they wanted.
No, they used it in exactly the way it was used in textbooks and in the common understanding that "man" was a gender neutral term. There are examples of such usage if you would like me to find some.
quote:
I believe that when it is used as it was in the study it was assigned a conditional value.
What do you mean by "conditional value"? If anything, it should have biased the results towards the perception of the term "man" to be more neutral because they made sure that the subjects knew that the chapter titles were for a sociology book not a book on men only. So what chapter titles would you have chosen? Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 250 by jar, posted 08-22-2006 11:16 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 252 by jar, posted 08-22-2006 11:34 PM | | nator has replied | | | Message 255 by Ben!, posted 08-23-2006 12:23 AM | | nator has not replied |
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