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Author | Topic: Absolute Morality...again. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Why is a morality that comes from GOD absolute. What makes it absolute? I understand that you tried to answer the question, I may not of phrased it appropriately. BUT what gives GOD's morality more viability then a different Absolute Morality? First, I've acknowledged that it is possible that there could be a God who did not give an absolute morality. The God of the Bible, however, did, so that if He exists, His morality is absolute. The reason it is absolute is that He is absolute and the moral law expresses His own mind, and He made us in His image so we reflect His own mind -- or did before the Fall. God's writing the Ten Commandments in stone has the meaning that the Law is absolute. Written in stone =absolute. It means that He made His universe to run by them, He made human nature to operate by them, so that violations of them are resistance or opposition to the natural operations of things, which has inevitable repercussions. There is no way to avoid the repercussions of the Law. It affects everyone equally and exactly. It is a universal Law. That's how God made it. When Jesus said that not one jot or tittle of the Law would go unfulfilled, He was referring to the absoluteness and precision of the Law down to minute details. Inexorability. {Edit: But of course, again, this is all true ONLY IF the God of the Bible is real and the Bible is reliable.} Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Jesus was not abrogating the law of the Sabbath with the story of an animal being unable to get out of a hole in the ground. The Sabbath was always for doing good, for performing acts of mercy, for moral necessities. Work is what one does for a living, or as part of the daily routine of life, and the Sabbath is meant to be a day of rest from all that in which God Himself is to be worshiped. Worshippig God includes acts of mercy.
I'm glad to see that others here agree that whether we understand it or not has nothing to do with whether there is an absolute morality. Many things we don't understand in both the physical and spiritual worlds but that doesn't make them any the less absolutely real. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes: If god makes it so that X is absolutely immoral, when is it not? How can we know if it is or is not? Since our communication with God is admittedly imperfect, how can we know that anything we think we hear from Him is "absolute"? Speaking of "absolute morality" makes no more sense than speaking of "yellow morality" or "large morality".
Are you skipping lines in the posts again? Quite possibly. Short attention span, you know. "It has no basis in reality" is not the same as "Its just not applicable to real life". I'm saying, "There's no such thing as a pink unicorn." You're saying, "It's impossible to ride a pink unicorn." Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Jesus was not abrogating the law of the Sabbath with the story of an animal being unable to get out of a hole in the ground. No one ever said he was. What was said that the Commandment must be interpreted based on the conditions of a particular incident. Even what you post show that it is subjective and relative. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Here's a question I've thought about some but am not sure about.
Might there not be a difference between relativity and circumstantiality? Say our rule is, "Thou shalt not murder," and we define murder as an unjustified killing. The problem, of course, is, what is meant by "unjustified"? One might claim that whether a killing is justified or not is to be decided on a case-by-case basis (whether it was self-defense, etc.). A "case-by-case basis" means circumstantiality. Whether a killing is murder or not depends on the circumstances of a given case. But is this the same as "relativity"? It might not be quite the same thing if we equate relativity with subjectivity. Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
How can we know if it is or is not? We can't.
Since our communication with God is admittedly imperfect, how can we know that anything we think we hear from Him is "absolute"? We can't.
Speaking of "absolute morality" makes no more sense than speaking of "yellow morality" or "large morality". It makes more sense to me Look, if god set up a system for an sbsolute morality and it exists, then it doesn't matter what we know or not, the system is there and it is absolute. Now, down here in the real world, we can't claim any of our moralities to be absolute but that doesn't negate the one that god set up or make it impossible.
"It has no basis in reality" is not the same as "Its just not applicable to real life". I'm saying, "There's no such thing as a pink unicorn." You're saying, "It's impossible to ride a pink unicorn." Yup, my statements are better. They don't make claims that are too strong to make. There's a basis in reality for absolute morality if you are religious, its just not applicable to everyday situations. Also, pink unicorns just might exist,just not in a way that you could ride one.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes: ... down here in the real world, we can't claim any of our moralities to be absolute but that doesn't negate the one that god set up or make it impossible. As far as I can tell, the OP is only talking about the real world. It asks for:
quote: To summarize: a working definition and an example. If your only argument is that there might possibly be some hypothetical version of "absolute morality" somewhere on the third moon of Saturn, you're probably off-topic. We seem to agree that there is no "absolute morality" on earth. Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Sure we can say for sure that something is morally wrong or right. Morals or morality deals with conformity to established sanctioned codes or accepted notions of right and wrong. These codes are determined by the individual and their culture. That doesn't mean that people haven't argued to change the codes. quote:Sure actions can be deemed immoral. Go against a cultures code and one will be deemed immoral. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote: Dictionary - Absolute 1. perfect; complete (absolute silence) 2. not mixed; pure 3. not limited; unrestricted (an absolute ruler) 4. positive; definite 5. actual; real (an absolute truth) 6. without reference to anything else But which meaning does it hold when used as an adjective for morality?
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
But which meaning does it hold when used as an adjective for morality? For the sake of the argument, can we for once drop the semantics and get down to the actual argument. I'm not neccesarily speaking about you, but alot of people keep bringing up asinine statements to detract from the actual argument, as if to ask me what my definition of "is", is. Absolute----> Definite------> Certain-------> Nothing can circumvent or supplant its authority. Does that work for everyone? Are we clear on what an absolute is? “Always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you.” -1st Peter 3:15
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Since the objection to absolut morality exists, the better question to precede it should entail whether or not anyone here believes in Absolutes at all.
Does anyone here believe that absolutes exist in nature or does everything relate in relativity? “Always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you.” -1st Peter 3:15
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Dictionary - Absolute 1. perfect; complete (absolute silence) 2. not mixed; pure 3. not limited; unrestricted (an absolute ruler) 4. positive; definite 5. actual; real (an absolute truth) 6. without reference to anything else Let's see if something can be eliminated. Suppose there was this powerful but benevolent king who wanted a very consistent justice system. So he instructed his counsels to write up a set of criteria for what constituted murder. They wrote up a set of criteria so elaborate that it covered every possible case in which a killing occurred. The judge would not have to do anything subjective. All he would have to do is look at the circumstances of the case and see if it matched the criteria. It would be like solving a simple problem in arithmetic. Is this theoretically possible? There would also be a precise, definite answer: either a killing was murder or it was not. We need not consider problems with evidence, because that's not a moral matter. That's a factual matter.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Either you're contradicting yourself or we are using different meanings for the words we are using.
When I say that we cannot say for sure that something is immoral, I mean that we can't know it, for sure(or...absolutely), to be immoral. It is just a label we put on it. We just deem it immoral, but really, we cannot know, for sure. So when you start with this:
quote: and end with this:
quote: You seem to be contradicting yourself, or at least what I mean by these words. If we are just deeming something immoral, then we don't know, and cannot say, for sure that it is immoral. Its our opinion.
Morals or morality deals with conformity to established sanctioned codes or accepted notions of right and wrong. These codes are determined by the individual and their culture. These are not absolute morals though. They are not "for sure". Otherwise, I agree with you here.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
We seem to agree that there is no "absolute morality" on earth. For all practicle purpose I agree there is not. But I believe in God and I think he has an absolute morality set up. Sin is that which seperates you from god and its immoral.
As far as I can tell, the OP is only talking about the real world. It asks for:
quote: To summarize: a working definition and an example.
I think a working definition has been established (from wiki). An example is not possible because we will always be able to think of a scenario where the morality is ambiguous, and not absolute. The best example possible, IMO is The Golden Rule.
If your only argument is that there might possibly be some hypothetical version of "absolute morality" somewhere on the third moon of Saturn, you're probably off-topic. Acually, I just jumped in becuase I thought it was stupid that DL was all like "Oh yeah, define it!" Which I thought was a pretty easy thing to do. Whether or not it actually exists is not knowable. It is certainly possible if god exists. An example? Can we even come up with an example of an absolute anyting?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No one ever said he was. What was said that the Commandment must be interpreted based on the conditions of a particular incident. Even what you post show that it is subjective and relative. No, it merely shows a specific application of the Law to a particular situation, nothing subjective or relative about it. Murder has many degrees because of different circumstances that don't call the absoluteness of the law into question, as the idea of subjectivity or relativity does. Robin's post after yours makes this distinction.
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