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Author Topic:   Absolute Morality...again.
Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 5063 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 1 of 300 (333157)
07-19-2006 12:14 AM


Please I would ask you to either start a new thread requested posts 64, 69. Because at this time you are throwing around absolute moralites or relativism, and in either case, you have not explicitly stated what the absolute moralies are and neither have you demonstrated how your characterization of relativism is proper.
I don't have to even identify what the absolute morality is or who instituted it. All that matters is, if you disagree that morals are absolute, then there is no such thing as right or wrong, in which case, I'm allowed to do whatever I opine and no one can scoff at my "version" of reality.
Its a no-win situation for a relativist.
Several times I've asked Nemesis Juggernaut from the rapture ready thread to come up with some sort of working definition of what Absolute Morality is. As well as possibly an example of it such that he could justify his usage of an Abosulte Morality as well as justifying his strawman characterization of what a relative morality is.
If morality is not absolute then nothing is wrong and everything is permissable, including Israel in Lebanon and the US in Iraq.
Check mate.
So I would invite Nemesis Juggernaut to come over here and hopefully have a productive discussion about what Absolute Morality is, as well as any other interested participant. And the discussion starts off with the quoted sections.
Faith and Belief forum please.
Edited by Discreet Label, : added weblink to the other thread as well as small formatting

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AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 2 of 300 (333229)
07-19-2006 7:14 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 3 of 300 (333248)
07-19-2006 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Discreet Label
07-19-2006 12:14 AM


What is Absolute Morality
I'm also interested in what is behind the term absolute morality.
Dictionary - Absolute
1. perfect; complete (absolute silence)
2. not mixed; pure
3. not limited; unrestricted (an absolute ruler)
4. positive; definite
5. actual; real (an absolute truth)
6. without reference to anything else
I'm curious which meaning of absolute refers to morality?
Dictionary - Moral
1. relating to, dealing with, or capable of distinguishing between, right and wrong in conduct.
Dictionary - Morality
1. moral quality or character; rightness or wrongness, as of an action
2. a being in accord with the principles or standards of right conduct; virtue
3. principles of right and wrong in conduct; ethics
4. moral instruction or lesson
5. a narrative with a moral lesson
Absolute is only an adjective which doesn't specify right or wrong.
Since morals can vary between cultures and change over time even within cultures, I'm not sure how any moral rule can be considered absolute when rules are subject to circumstances.
Hopefully someone will get down to the nitty gritty and shed some light on this notion.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 300 (333262)
07-19-2006 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Discreet Label
07-19-2006 12:14 AM


that was easy
Several times I've asked Nemesis Juggernaut from the rapture ready thread to come up with some sort of working definition of what Absolute Morality is.
All you had to do was type in "Absolute Morality" into wikipedia and the definition pops right up.
On the contrary we have, Moral relativism.
As well as possibly an example of it such that he could justify his usage of an Abosulte Morality as well as justifying his strawman characterization of what a relative morality is.
The usage of AM can be justified by a belief in god.
His characterization of RM was incorrect, its not that there are NO morals, its just that the majority rules.
You can live your life according to AM but you can't use it to run a country, thats where RM steps in.
NJ writes:
I don't have to even identify what the absolute morality is or who instituted it. All that matters is, if you disagree that morals are absolute, then there is no such thing as right or wrong, in which case, I'm allowed to do whatever I opine and no one can scoff at my "version" of reality.
Right and wrong are determined by the rest of us and we make laws around them. None of them are absolutely wrong, but that comes down to your personal opinion and how you want to live your life.
I see nothing wrong with eating meat, neither does my country, its legal and perfectly fine IMO. Someone else might consider it morally wrong and refrain from doing it and that's fine but neither of us are absolutely right, or wrong. But according to our country, it isn't morally wrong and I'm permitted to so it.
Murder on the other hand is consider morally wrong by the majority and we have laws against it. I too find it morally wrong and refrain from doing it but someone else might not have a problem with it. Because they don't have a problem with it doesn't mean that the rest of us aren't justified in thinking it is wrong and making laws against it. I can't say that murder is absolutely immoral, but I can say that it is immoral in this country, and not permitted. The lack of an absolute standard for the immorality of murder doesn't mean that we can't deem it immoral and bitch at, or punish, people for doing it.

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 300 (333265)
07-19-2006 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by New Cat's Eye
07-19-2006 10:03 AM


Re: that was easy
The issue is not whether or not someone believes that there are Absolute Morals but rather getting them to show an example of such a beast. If, like the invisible yellow duckies that can only be herded by little children, there is no evidence that such Absolutes exist, is there any real value to Absolute Morals or invisible duckies beyond the immense fun I had herding them duckies as a child and the joy that my father got watching me totter before him, my arms outstretched, darting off to gather in the wayward one as we walked down the street.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 300 (333268)
07-19-2006 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
07-19-2006 10:11 AM


Re: that was easy
The issue is not whether or not someone believes that there are Absolute Morals
The first issue was that crap of "Oh yeah, well define it!" when DL asked for a definition That’s the easy part.
but rather getting them to show an example of such a beast.
An example is not possible because we'll always be able to come up with a situation where the absolute moral is ambiguous (and therefore not absolute). You've prolly heard them all before.
The issue is not whether or not someone believes that there are Absolute Morals
The first issue was that crap of "Oh yeah, well define it!" when DL asked for a definition. That’s the easy part.
but rather getting them to show an example of such a beast.
An example is not possible because we'll always be able to come up with a situation where the absolute moral is ambiguous (and therefore not absolute). You've prolly heard them all before. That doesn’t mean that there can’t be one, especially if it is god-given.
there is no evidence that such Absolutes exist, is there any real value to Absolute Morals
Evidence doesn't matter. If it exists then it exists. The value is on a personal level, what you think is right/wrong and what you are going to do, morally. Murder absolutely wrong? what about self defense or war? That doesn’t mean that there can’t be one, especially if it is god-given.
there is no evidence that such Absolutes exist, is there any real value to Absolute Morals
Evidence doesn't matter. If it exists then it exists. The value is on a personal level, what you think is right/wrong and what you are going to do, morally.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 7 of 300 (333274)
07-19-2006 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by New Cat's Eye
07-19-2006 10:19 AM


Moral Absolutism
I didn't realize that the absolute moral thing was an -ism.
quote:
An example is not possible because we'll always be able to come up with a situation where the absolute moral is ambiguous (and therefore not absolute). You've prolly heard them all before.
So while morals exists an absolute moral does not.
For morals to be truly absolute, they would have to have a universally unquestioned source, interpretation and authority. Therefore, so critics say, there is no conceivable source of such morals, and none can be called "absolute". So even if there are absolute morals, there will never be universal agreement on just what those morals are, making them by definition unknowable.
Well that clears up a lot.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 300 (333276)
07-19-2006 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by purpledawn
07-19-2006 10:55 AM


Re: Moral Absolutism
Well that clears up a lot.
That's good.
So while morals exists an absolute moral does not.
Yes, we have morals, but we cannot say, for sure, that something is morally wrong or not, we, collectively or personally, just deem them as immoral. I think NJ was saying that without an absolute morality then, in reality, nothing can truly be deemed immoral, just "I think that is immoral".
quote:
For morals to be truly absolute, they would have to have a universally unquestioned source, interpretation and authority.
I'd have to say that an absolute morality is possible if it is god given.
quote:
Therefore, so critics say, there is no conceivable source of such morals, and none can be called "absolute".
We cannot call them absolute because we don't know for sure but that doesn't mean that they cannot be absolute, even if it is without our knowing. Its just not applicable to real life.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 9 of 300 (333278)
07-19-2006 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Discreet Label
07-19-2006 12:14 AM


An absolute morality would be one given by God, if God exists.
If it's given by the Creator God, then it is binding on all, there are no gray areas or exceptions.
If the God of the Bible exists, then absolute morality is the Ten Commandments.

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 300 (333282)
07-19-2006 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Faith
07-19-2006 11:30 AM


If the God of the Bible exists, then absolute morality is the Ten Commandments.
Which Ten Commandments?
What is the Absolute Definition of Murder?
What is the Absolute definition of Honor Thy Father and Mother?
What does it means if we work on the Sabbath?
Why did Jesus say that that commandment must be interpreted as relative and not absolute?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 11 of 300 (333291)
07-19-2006 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Discreet Label
07-19-2006 12:14 AM


ahem...
quote:
If morality is not absolute then nothing is wrong and everything is permissable
This statement is correct, cultural or moral relativism essentially creates this problem.
A man named Kant wrote on a philosophy on how to decipher moral right and wrong that was based much on a concept most here would understand: the Golden rule.
There is also another philosophy that is utilizeded to deem action as right or wrong which depends on the happiness of the majority. This philosophy: utilitarianism can be easily dismissed through questioning the majority or minority of a culture, to establish what exactly is, if not each individual vary (as they will) on their own beliefs. It is simply an unrealistic way to judge or rule a society.
I hope this helps answer your questions on an otherwise subjective subject (right and wrong) that would lead to utter chaos if each person's morals were respected with equal justice and mercy of a society's law.
Good luck.
Edited by friend of Kierkegaard, : No reason given.
Edited by friend of Kierkegaard, : edit originally for spelling error and then removal of the type after recognizing this feature

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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 300 (333293)
07-19-2006 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Trump won
07-19-2006 11:57 AM


Welcome to EvC
I went ahead and merged your other registration of Either/or. We prefer each member to have one unique account.
At the end of this message you will find links to other threads that may make your stay here more enjoyable. Pull up a stump and set a spell and if you keep your feet to the fire, the smoke never gets in your eyes.
Edited by AdminJar, : change to admin account

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    Trump won 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1239 days)
    Posts: 1928
    Joined: 01-12-2004


    Message 13 of 300 (333296)
    07-19-2006 12:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 12 by AdminJar
    07-19-2006 12:02 PM


    Re: Welcome to EvC
    My registered email address was too long, I didn't recognize Google changed it to fit its regulations until after I had registered

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    Discreet Label
    Member (Idle past 5063 days)
    Posts: 272
    Joined: 11-17-2005


    Message 14 of 300 (333301)
    07-19-2006 12:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 9 by Faith
    07-19-2006 11:30 AM


    If this
    An absolute morality would be one given by God , if God exists.
    How is it that an Absolute Morality must come from GOD? Could not an Absolute Morality come from a different source? And if GOD does not exist how do you come to the conclusion that an Absolute Morality does not exist?
    If it's given by the Creator God, then it is binding on all, there are no gray areas or exceptions.
    How is an Absolute Morality assigned by GOD become binding on all? Are you then saying that we are committing sin by not following the Absolute Morality.
    If the God of the Bible exists, then absolute morality is the Ten Commandments.
    (This question is probably answered as you answer the rest). How do you come to the conlusion that the Ten Commandents are the Absolute Morality? Is there not other morals present within the bible? Why do you disclude those?
    How do you come to the conclusion an:

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    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 15 of 300 (333303)
    07-19-2006 12:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 10 by jar
    07-19-2006 11:42 AM


    You are asking for definitions that often take up whole sermon series and commentaries, and it doesn't matter for purposes of this discussion because all that is being asked is what constitutes an absolute morality. The answer is that any morality given by the God who made us would be absolute. Our ability or inability to sort out the various commandments or understand them thoroughly has nothing to do with whether their demands are absolute or not. Again, they are, if they are given by God. Period.

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