Absolute Morality...again.

How do you come to this conclusion? How does utilarianism become an unrealistic way to judge or rule a society? What causes you to say that Moral Relativism must acknowledge every moral value set to be respected with equal justice and mercy?

A working definition? Its simple... Its morality that is absolute. I don't know how many more ways a hair can be split.The argument isn't in defining the set of priciples for absolute morality. The argument is against the necessity of the philosophical concept. If someone does not believe that morality is absolute then there is no right or wrong which in turn makes everything permissable. This means that everyones beliefs concerning morality comes down to personal opinion. If morality is based on personal opinion, then there is no right or wrong in my version of morality. In other words, you can't claim that I'm ever wrong and you can't claim that you're ever right. Its just your opinion which makes any kind of arguing over it, null and void.So lets see a show of hands: Who believes that morals are absolute, irrespective of defining what those morals are.

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“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.” -1st Peter 3:15

How do you come to this conclusion? Why could not another source be the source of an Absolute Morality, what makes GOD the only source?

Of what value is an absolute that no one can understand? And if they are such that whole sermons must be written to explain them, then it is obvious that they are NOT absolute but rather depend on the interpretation of whichever commentary you happen to believe. Okay. But if we don't know what they are, how can they be absolute?You said that the Ten Commandments are Absolutes. Jesus says they must be interpreted as relative and subjective. Which is correct?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I don't think I said it MUST come from God. I simply said that a morality that DID come from God would be absolute. Theoretically that's possible. But I don't know of such a source. I do know that if the Biblical God exists, He's definitely such a source. I don't think I said that, did I? Actually this has been argued up one side and down the other over the last few months and the general conclusion has been that there is no absolute morality. Some think that even if there is a God there isn't necessarily an absolute morality. Depends on the God. The God of the Bible is characterized in such a way that His morality is definitely absolute. Written in stone. Absolutely. I gave the Ten Commandments as an example of what an absolute morality would be if there is one. They are given by God, therefore they are absolute. (Actually, all the other commandments can be shown to be subsets or elaborations of the ten.)Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

It doesn't matter where an "absolute morality" comes from.If an "absolute morality" is given to us humans, it ceases to be absolute, because the communication medium is imperfect. Every human receives a different version of the "absolute" and it becomes relative."Absolute morality" may be an academic possibility but it has no basis in reality.

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I think this got answered in my other post but it may still need some clarificiation. You are misreading my statement. It only says that a morality given by God would be absolute. It doesn't say that a morality from another source would not be absolute.

What do you mean when you say absolute? Are you saying there is only 1 specific moral action to take in any given situation? Are you saying that there is onlya 1 proper conlusion to come to? How do you come to this conclusion for a society? Individually people may see everything as permissable, but moral sets also extend beyond the indivudal. How do you again come to this conlusion of morality coming down to personal opinion, when personal opinion is not the only place to draw upon for moral values? Does not a society have its own set of moral values? Again how can you come to this conclusion? I can claim I am completely right and you are completely wrong. But the validity of the statement comes into the question does it not. Can not a claim be more right than another person's claim? Could not one action be more 'right' then another action?

Why is a morality that comes from GOD absolute. What makes it absolute? I understand that you tried to answer the question, I may not of phrased it appropriately. BUT what gives GOD's morality more viability then a different Absolute Morality?

Jesus did not say the commandments should be interpreted as relative and subjective.We don't need to understand them for them to be absolute. It could very well be that the universe is run on an absolute morality and nobody knows for sure what it is, or that it takes deep meditation to discover it. I think this in fact has been the case for many cultures who were not favored by God's revelation. Hinduism for instance has intuited the existence of an absolute morality that affects all of us and called it Karma, but it doesn't have any codified principles or precepts or commands that I know of.So the point is that their being absolute or not has nothing to do with whether we recognize or understand them or not. The law of gravity operates whether we recognize or understand it or not.

So, since you assert that the God of the Bible does exist, you view the making of any graven image as immoral? Or the doing of any work whatsoever on the Sabbath as immoral? Those are among one of the sets of Ten Commandments....unless you prefer "seething a kid in its mother's milk" as an absolute immorality.

Again, that may simply be a difference in how folk read the Bible, but IIRC Jesus tells the parable of the ass in the crack on the Sabbath. He tells the folk that even though the Commandment is that you should not work on the sabbath, don't wait for the next day to get your ass out of the crack.Now you said that the Ten Commandments are Absolute, but Jesus says, "That's mishigas." Talk about a catch-22.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

That's very close to just plain silly. Any human community you can think of has a set of morals, and they differ quite a bit from culture to culture. Marrying six women is forbidden by law and by the standard morality (not to mention common sense!!) in England or Vermont, but was perfectly acceptable and moral to an Ottoman Emperor or a Chinese noble of a few years back. What's permissible is never "everything" - it's what your culture dictates. Whether those dictates come from rational decisions or from the culture's favored mythology is a separate issue.

ok nah, it could still be absolute.If god makes it so that X is absolutely immoral, when is it not?The imperfect communication medium doesn't make it no longer immoral, if you do X then you did it and you were immoral (in god's eyes). It doesn't matter if you don't have a full understanding of what you did or if other people don't think it was immoral.And, I don't really think that we have been given the absolute morality, like I typed, we can always come up with scenarios were the morality becomes ambiguous (and no longer absolute). If an absolute morality exists, then we don't fully understand it so we'll have to rely on our subjective morality.Also, couldn't it be argued that if they were absolute, they have to be in a way that they couldn't be made subjective? i.e. only one version, or defined in a way to eliminate reletivity. Are you skipping lines in the posts again?Read the very last line I typed in Message 8:

quote:

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Its just not applicable to real life.

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What do you mean when you say "is"?AbsolutePerfect in quality or nature; complete.
Not mixed; pure. See Synonyms at pure.
1. Not limited by restrictions or exceptions; unconditional: absolute trust.
2. Unqualified in extent or degree; total: absolute silence. See Usage Note at infinite.
Unconstrained by constitutional or other provisions: an absolute ruler.
Not to be doubted or questioned So then some peoples opinions are higher than that of others. The main premise being that you can't say that I'm ever wrong about anything. Its my opinion if there is no absolute morality. Where else could it come from then? If morals aren't absolute then it was formulated by the opinions of the lawmakers. Otherwise you are saying that morals are intrinsic. If morals are intrinsic then that would mean that everyone would agree upon what is moral and what is not, which would make it absolute. Not with absolutes, it can't! Alrght, lets break it down a little further. Do you believe that absolutes of any kind exist or is everything relative?

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“Always be ready to give a defense to
everyone who asks you a reason for the
hope that is in you.” -1st Peter 3:15