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Author
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Topic: Absolute Morality...again.
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: that was easy
The issue is not whether or not someone believes that there are Absolute Morals but rather getting them to show an example of such a beast. If, like the invisible yellow duckies that can only be herded by little children, there is no evidence that such Absolutes exist, is there any real value to Absolute Morals or invisible duckies beyond the immense fun I had herding them duckies as a child and the joy that my father got watching me totter before him, my arms outstretched, darting off to gather in the wayward one as we walked down the street.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 10 of 300 (333282)
07-19-2006 11:42 AM
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Reply to: Message 9 by Faith
07-19-2006 11:30 AM
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If the God of the Bible exists, then absolute morality is the Ten Commandments. Which Ten Commandments? What is the Absolute Definition of Murder? What is the Absolute definition of Honor Thy Father and Mother? What does it means if we work on the Sabbath? Why did Jesus say that that commandment must be interpreted as relative and not absolute?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 11:30 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 15 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 12:11 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 19 of 300 (333309)
07-19-2006 12:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
07-19-2006 12:11 PM
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Let's try again
The answer is that any morality given by the God who made us would be absolute. Our ability or inability to sort out the various commandments or understand them thoroughly has nothing to do with whether their demands are absolute or not. Of what value is an absolute that no one can understand? And if they are such that whole sermons must be written to explain them, then it is obvious that they are NOT absolute but rather depend on the interpretation of whichever commentary you happen to believe.
Again, they are, if they are given by God. Period. Okay. But if we don't know what they are, how can they be absolute? You said that the Ten Commandments are Absolutes. Jesus says they must be interpreted as relative and subjective. Which is correct?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 12:11 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 25 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 12:30 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 27 of 300 (333320)
07-19-2006 12:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
07-19-2006 12:30 PM
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Re: Let's try again
Jesus did not say the commandments should be interpreted as relative and subjective. Again, that may simply be a difference in how folk read the Bible, but IIRC Jesus tells the parable of the ass in the crack on the Sabbath. He tells the folk that even though the Commandment is that you should not work on the sabbath, don't wait for the next day to get your ass out of the crack. Now you said that the Ten Commandments are Absolute, but Jesus says, "That's mishigas."
We don't need to understand them for them to be absolute. Talk about a catch-22.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 12:30 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 32 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 1:26 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 34 of 300 (333331)
07-19-2006 1:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
07-19-2006 1:26 PM
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Re: Let's try again
Jesus was not abrogating the law of the Sabbath with the story of an animal being unable to get out of a hole in the ground. No one ever said he was. What was said that the Commandment must be interpreted based on the conditions of a particular incident. Even what you post show that it is subjective and relative.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 32 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 1:26 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 45 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 3:13 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 47 of 300 (333390)
07-19-2006 3:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 45 by Faith
07-19-2006 3:13 PM
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Re: Let's try again
No, it merely shows a specific application of the Law to a particular situation, nothing subjective or relative about it. Yes, the law must be considered in relation to the particular situation.
Murder has many degrees because of different circumstances that don't call the absoluteness of the law into question, as the idea of subjectivity or relativity does. Huh? And the Commandment say "Thou shalt not kill." To change it to "Thou shalt not do murder" makes it very much subjective and relative. What is murder under one set of conditions may be self defense in fact. Give us an example of an Absolute Moral.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 3:13 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 233 of 300 (334646)
07-23-2006 9:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 232 by Faith
07-23-2006 8:58 PM
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I said the SEARCH FOR THE BEST MORAL RESOLUTION OF ANY GIVEN DILEMMA (which has been the occupation of most of the human race forever, until postmodern chaos took over), implies that there must be an absolute morality. Yes, we know that you said that. The question is "Why do you think that it implies that there must or even might be some absolute morality?"
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 232 by Faith, posted 07-23-2006 8:58 PM | | Faith has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 235 of 300 (334654)
07-23-2006 9:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 234 by Faith
07-23-2006 9:12 PM
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Faith asserts:
If anyone is seriously searching for the right moral resolution to any dilemma, they have to implicitly be assuming, whether conscious of it or not, that there IS a right moral resolution to any dilemma. Again, that is not obvious. In addition, you are now shifting the goalposts again from Absolute to Right. In addition, what they may be looking for the the best solution in a given situation. That does not imply in anyway that it is absolute or even right or best.
I said the SEARCH FOR THE BEST MORAL RESOLUTION OF ANY GIVEN DILEMMA (which has been the occupation of most of the human race forever, until postmodern chaos took over), implies that there must be an absolute morality. So again, what evidence is there that some Absolute Morality exists?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 234 by Faith, posted 07-23-2006 9:12 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 236 by Faith, posted 07-23-2006 9:38 PM | | jar has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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on Mere Christianity
Lots of folk forget the purpose of Mere Christianity was propaganda and moral. They were originally a series of BBC lectures broadcast during the War in 1943. They were meant to improve moral and confidence at a time when things really didn't look all that good. It was only later that they were gathered together into one book and published.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 264 by Omnivorous, posted 07-29-2006 11:06 PM | | Omnivorous has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 268 of 300 (336534)
07-29-2006 11:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 267 by Trump won
07-29-2006 11:23 PM
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Re: on Mere Christianity
Not at all sir. They were great lectures and I wish I could have heard them. The book is also a great read, one we had to both support and refute back when I was in high school and the subject matter in it was the source of many wonderful hours of debate. CS Lewis though was a complicated person and one quotemines him only at great personal peril. He is not a person that fits well in small boxes. 'Course we can thank JRR for directing Lewis to the CoE even though JRR still pulled for the Pope. LOL
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 267 by Trump won, posted 07-29-2006 11:23 PM | | Trump won has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 272 of 300 (336539)
07-29-2006 11:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 271 by Trump won
07-29-2006 11:43 PM
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Re: on Mere Christianity
JRR = JRR Tolkien CoE = Church of England.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 271 by Trump won, posted 07-29-2006 11:43 PM | | Trump won has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Lets try this one more time
Because there is an unspoken understanding that crosses the boundaries of culture. If I went to India, Tibet, Paraguay, Cuba, Iceland, or Malaysia and walked up to someone and took their seat, they'd all have this understanding that what I had done was wrong. And when they begin to argue that point, they are appealing to me to uphold some intrinsic standard of humanity. So, where does it originate from? It comes from shared experiences and the majority view in the era. When I was little if I boarded a crowded bus and there was a black person sitting they would have gotten up to give me their seat, both through custom and through LAW. I was white, he was black, the moral thing was for him to move.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Lets try this one more time
I am making the appeal that at on some level, there must exist a specific standard because without it, there is no basis for arriving at any decision on any level of morality. Yes, you have made that appeal, but so far I can find nowhere that you supported it. Why is it impossible to establish morals without some absolute standard?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Lets try this one more time
But there is also absolute morals. That is what I cannot see you supporting yet.
By the very definition of right and wrong, there must be a set standard. Right and wrong convey an absolute. Why?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 293 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2006 12:28 PM | | Hyroglyphx has not replied |
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