International opinions: USA on science!

Is that right? That's all? Whew...I thought they were gonna invade us and force all to live on collective farms and harvest sugar cane!lfen

And your definition of life, and non life are?Living things are comprised of the same chemicals and follow the same processes that non living things do. The difference is one of complexity.Consciousness remains for me a great mystery but consciousness, life, non life are all part of this universe and interact. Science changes as new information and better theories develop. In this it is superior to religion which strives to conserve the ancient misunderstandings and ignorance. So your charge of change is tacit recognizition that biology is functioning in the manner it's supposed to.Science is not religion. It doesn't give you the apparent security of simple revealed truths for all times that you can stop thinking and merely complacently continue with your life without doing the work to understand it.Biology has made tremendous strides but life on earth is extremely complex. That our understanding of evolution is not complete should surprise no one.I personally am not satisfied with the TOE, but I see that the science must be followed until more is revealed. The ancients thinking that lightning was God's wrath being flung at humans, or that humans have been formed from dust and then a God who had a mouthed breathed into their mouth is the comforting literal images of our past but other than revealing the human brain's strong tendency to understand by analogy to itself, this anthromorphic story telling had useful social and psychological functions but is not a substitute for science.ID is not doing any useful science. It's an attempt to return to prescientific theocratic society, the Judiac model of the state. Real science is being done in laboratories and out in the field and yes, it's changing. Surprise, surprise!and people still cling to outdated superstition which can at times surprise me. I expect more of them than that but my expectations are clearly not in keeping with reality so I have to drop my expectations and acknowledge the data.lfen

Living things are made from the same "materials" and "energies" as rocks and stars. The chemistry is far more complicated but not unique. Atoms that were part of inorganic structures become part of organis structures and then once again to become "dead" or unliving atoms.Abiogensis might be possible. The universe manifest the great range of possibilities that the basic energy and structures allow. What we don't yet know is the role of consciousness in all this. Have you a proposed range of values for "many"? I know that some people are interested in Druids, Wicca, etc. but I think they are a minority of the population. I've seen no figures but haven't seen anything that appears to me to be a resurgence in these activities. Press coverage of Wiccans around Halloween is just not evidence. I'm not sure who you are referring to. Most biologist are doing work in many diverse fields from cell biology to ecology. I am certain there will be major, even radical changes in the theory and understanding of life and it will come from the work being done by biologists and not the religious objections of IDers and YECers.ABE: Perhaps you have been referring to the popularizers of ToE like tv shows and Dawkin's books? The vast majority of biologists never write popular books. Their work and publications are for peers in peer reviewed journals. I really think you need to study more science as your criticisms give the impression that you've a very distorted idea of how it is done.lfenEdited by lfen, : further thought and since no one had replied or posted in the thread I thought I'd ABE it.

How science is done. Specifically how biology is done. Only a very few people do nothing but theorize. Most working biologists are either experimental or doing field observations.lfen

I didn't have time this morning to respond to your question.We can measure mass, energy, distance, and time and make observations, predictions etc. These four qualities or quantities are related and also philosophically they make sense to us as essentials for the discription of the universe.Just as essential is our self awareness that we are aware of our "selves" in a space time with matter energy. But is this fifth quality, "consciousness" a fundamental or emergent property of the universe?Does consciousness have a fundamental role in the universe in the same way that space/time mass/energy do? Or is it just one of many phenomena that emerge like wetness or self replication?lfen

Please define worship. Do only humans worship? Or do apes, mammals, insects, etc? Does a human have to be a particular age before they worship?some possibilities: or a Christian discussion that ranked high on Google: more possibilities: It might just be possible if one comflates a wide variety of meanings for the word to claim that everyone might worship something, though not people in coma for example. I wouldn't say either that the dependency of a heroin addict on their drug was worship though some heroin addicts might worship the drug most just use it. Animals can be addicted so I don't think that behaviour qualifies as worshipping.For example at this point I will confidently state that all humans require oxygen to live. I believe this to be catagorically true. I am skeptical that unless you play fast and loose with the definition that the assertion "Everyone worships something" is catagorically true.lfen

If the assumption that matter and energy can't be created or destroyed only transformed is true, what is your conclusion?If you think matter and energy can be created or destroyed please give an example.lfen

I'll speak for myself on this. If by "miracle event" you mean something that unaccountably breaks known laws of physics then I don't know what the miracle event would be. But as living things don't break known laws of physics what would be the point of breaking the laws of physics?If you mean by miracle event the occurance of low probability like winning the lottery or a human body with extensive cancer mobilizing it's immunce system and clearing the cancer then we are looking for the conditions in which that could occur.What I notice about the universe is that is incredibly rich. A few forces and fundamental particles can combine to make atoms, those atoms can combine to make a huge array of molecules. These molecules can combine to make a wide spectrum of living organisms.Yet the same laws function in all these forms. There is not some unknown substance in living things that we don't find in precursors. Living things can be reduced to precursor substances. Living things seem to fit comfortable in this universe. If the universe can result in atoms, molecules, stars, galaxies, planets, organic molecules, and living things then these all seem to be potentials of the fundamental "stuff" of this universe.I don't know where consciousness fits in all this though. I certainly couldn't be writing this and contemplating these things if I weren't conscious so in that sense it's fundamental to our understanding but is it fundamental to the universe? Is it an unknown aspect of energy/matter? Or is is an emergent property of hightly complex living systems? Some folks ala Descartes hold that consciousness is something separtate that was somehow hooked up with matter. That is looking more and more improbable but I don't think it has yet been definitively falsified though I do think it's untenable.lfen