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Author Topic:   Are there any substitutes for having inner peace?
lfen
Member (Idle past 4707 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 278 of 300 (327867)
06-30-2006 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by robinrohan
06-30-2006 12:44 PM


Re: fulfilllment
I loafe and invite my soul,
I lean and loafe at my ease observing a spear of summer grass.
My tongue, every atom of my blood, form'd from this soil,
this air,
Born here of parents born here from parents the same, and
their parents the same,
I, now thirty-seven years old in perfect health begin,
Hoping to cease not till death.
Whitman's "Song of Myself" Modern American Poetry

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by robinrohan, posted 06-30-2006 12:44 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by robinrohan, posted 06-30-2006 6:20 PM lfen has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4707 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 280 of 300 (327900)
06-30-2006 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by robinrohan
06-30-2006 6:20 PM


Re: fulfilllment
Now if you do the Whitman thing, you can become me.
I hadn't intended to joke. I was offering Whitman's poetry as a testimonial for being over becoming.
"I am" is subjective. "becoming me" is objective. Two different directions, or focuses. Whitman was talking about the appreciation of just being. I think there is fulfillment in that. I think that is one of the things Whitman's poetry is celebrating.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by robinrohan, posted 06-30-2006 6:20 PM robinrohan has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4707 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 287 of 300 (328015)
07-01-2006 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by robinrohan
07-01-2006 12:53 PM


Re: Any purpose given by a creator is objective
Think in terms of formal purpose, Ramoss. The formal purpose of a hammer is to drive nails. You could use it for some other purpose, which we can label as "subjective" (knocking someone in the head with it, for example)but that would not be its formal purpose.
Robin,
I'm still having trouble seeing the connection of formal purpose being implying, entailing, whatever "objectivity".
I want to drive nails and tire of whacking them with a rock which takes a long time. Using a combination of a lever (the handle) attached to a hard weighted shaped head I discover that nails go in faster with less effort on my part. I'm satisfied with my tools. It's an extension of my arm that multiplies the force and adds a capability that flesh and bone doesn't have vis a vis driving nails, or breaking head, eggs, rocks, etc.
What is objective about this? My purpose is subjective. I want to build a house, or fence and needed something to better drive the nails with. Let's say a hammer escapes from an astronauts hand and somehow is picked up floating in space by an alien would they know what it was?
It seems like the purpose of the hammer is as subjective as anything else I intend. I would say meaning is subjective. The objective lacks meaning. It can be measured and described but what is the meaning of a proton? Of a star?
If you ask "What is the meaning of my life". You are making your life an object, or making your self an object. You seem to being saying that if God exists and created me than I am an object for God. But what about my subjectivity? My sense of "I am" that I relate to the objects that I am aware of?
Hence, though Arach has offered alternate translations, God tells Moses that his name is "I am that I am". So it would appear God has no purpose. But if we are then do we have a purpose? Did God make us in his image? Or did we make God(s) in our image and then make up the story that He made us?
Who am I? Is the question. But who asks the question is always subject regarding a wide range of possible objects. What if we are the source of meaning? Can the source of meaning have meaning? Perhaps to be meaningless is To Be?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2006 12:53 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Faith, posted 07-01-2006 2:10 PM lfen has not replied
 Message 289 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2006 2:14 PM lfen has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4707 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 294 of 300 (328047)
07-01-2006 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by robinrohan
07-01-2006 2:14 PM


Re: Any purpose given by a creator is objective
If the hammer were conscious, it would be aware that its purpose in life was to drive nails. This is what it was designed by its Maker to do. So from the point of view of the hammer, the purpose is objective.
Okay assuming a conscious hammer. It's driving nails and feeling good as it's purpose is being fulfilled. Lunch break and designer builder sits down and discovers walnuts in his lunch. Wack! the hammer is now serving another purpose, that of cracking walnut shells for its maker to get at the walnut inside the shell to eat. Does the hammer feel unfulfilled or not? It's no longer functioning to meet it's designed purpose.
It sounds to me like objective means being used by something outside and subjecive means not being used by an external agent for a purpose. Could subjective mean self directed and objective mean other directed?
Why is self direction (if it exists but I'll leave that alone knowing that that bogs down for you) meaningless and other direction meaningful? Must meaning always be bestowed by something outside oneself?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2006 2:14 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2006 4:33 PM lfen has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4707 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 297 of 300 (328053)
07-01-2006 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by robinrohan
07-01-2006 4:33 PM


Re: Any purpose given by a creator is objective
Okay, but I want you to explain to me why if I create meaning my life is meaningless? Why can't I be the source? Why do I have to be sourced?
To do a meta reframing: Why can't the meaning of my life be to create meaning?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2006 4:33 PM robinrohan has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4707 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 298 of 300 (328055)
07-01-2006 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by robinrohan
07-01-2006 4:33 PM


Re: Any purpose given by a creator is objective
The law of gravity is something that we did not think up. We discovered it. It's outside our intentions and our minds. It would be true whether we existed or not.
Would you agree to this fine tuning of the language of your statement?
The phenomena that we describe using the law of gravity is something we did not think up. We created models that would describe the effects of it's functioning. Aristotle's model was badly flawed. Newton's model works very well for us, and Einstein's model appears to be more accurate than Newton's over the extremes.
The phenomena described by gravity is independent of our existence.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2006 4:33 PM robinrohan has not replied

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