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Author | Topic: Free will: an illusion | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Ikabod writes:
so.. 'with god all things are possible'? if thats the best you can do, there really is no point. IF every time an obstacle appears you magic it away by gods super powers.. there really is no point in discussion. if god is all powerful can he not change the rules that we live with in a "bubble" of free will , that at the same time he knows all but we have free will... he made the universe so he can set the rules ,given he is outside time every thing may be a massive now with out past or future from god view point.. all events are similtanious.If God is outside time, past present future is simulanteous, like reader holding a book (to use Ianos favourite analogy) time as he looks at it is everchanging, as a consequence of our decisions. but yet, god knows (as he is all knowing) what every change will be, when and where it will happen... the same argument stands.. it is all foreknown, I have the choice of A or B, God knows I will choose A, it is inevitable. the choice is an illusion. because the only outcome will be A, there is no option for B. god knows this. otherwise God is wrong. Ikabod writes:
According to Xian teaching there most definitely is a right and a wrong one. I concede that we do not need all the information to make a choice. However.. Is is fair or just for God to ask us to choose or not choose based upon little more than hearsay? he "wants that all should be saved".. great.. I'm sure that most people would want to be saved, I am also sure that some people would not choose that path even if god appeared nightly on his own chat show. But as it stands, God chose to communicate with us through a 2000 year old text which is merely a rough translation, an interpretation of what was written. It tells me things like If I wear cloth made from different yarns it is an abomination, if I eat shellfish it is an abomination, etc. what exactly is there to imply that this book is little more than a collection of folk tales and the equivalent of public information broadcasts...
only if you wish to analyis your choice and you assume that there is a right or wrong one ... if you had all the info , would you pick a bad choice just to exersize your free will ?... Ikabod writes:
Look.. according to the fundamentalists here (who this thread is aimed at) we cannot even determine geology correctly, genetics is something we misunderstand because we are fallen, In fact our own understanding of morality (tolerance of homosexuality, sexual equality) goes against the bible and is a result of our inability to see what is right. IF this is in fact correct, what makes you so sure you can choose, in an informed, intelligent way, whether or not to follow god... what makes you so sure you can even recognise God? as point 2 , if you have free will you can make a uninformed choice ... you nwant to be able to pick your choice based on so scale ... but what scale do you want .. and even nthen .. with free will you can still pick any choice Edited by Creavolution, : fixed quotes
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
apologies.. done
of course you could alway join in and explain your position on these three points? come on... you know you want to...
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
phat writes:
precisely... this is the problem with an all knowing god supposedly giving us free will... either so destiny is set in stone? Perhaps...but if so, why even make any decisions at all?a)there is no all knowing god, or b)We do not really have free will. phat writes:
The idea I have heard mooted by certain Xians who wish to remain un referred to, is that, God reaches out to us, we make the 'decision' whether or not to take him up on his offer. But god knows what decision we will make, so in Effect he creates us (or some of us)knowing that we will not choose him. or choose to accept his advances. i.e. doomed to eternal hell.. Assuming that we are fallen, the Bible supports the view that no one seeks God. I believe that God finds us...we never find Him.Nice.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
iano writes:
If (what i believe) your idea of god to be exists... then yes.. exactly. We are nothing more that programmed machines playing out what he knows will happen. He created us with fallen judgement. so even if our choices actually represent free will.. they are hopeless as we cannot judge whether or not we make the right decision. It seems to me that would be no 'me', no 'position', nothing to 'explain' - just instinctual (read programmed) machines doing what programmed machines do. Programmed machines cannot explain anything. They are unable You are saved? How do you know this.. by your own definition of the fallen state of mankind, your judgement will not allow you to discern this.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
From your recent discussion with PY:
iano writes:
The only way out is to desert and join the other sideiano writes:
If you are lost however it is that you have rejected his gospel. iano writes:
Consider yourself sliding down a slope to Perdition - for that is what you are on. God reaches out to arrest your fall but your struggle free. He grasps a hold of your hand but you bite it and force him to release his grip. In releasing he is respecting your choice at that point. Occasion after occasion he tries to grasp you. You have free will: you can struggle free of his attempt to save you or you can do nothing...God saves man / man damns himself iano writes: ...that would interfere with your free will to reject. So we do "choose" to reject...if we don't choose to reject our choice is to accept... Edited by Creavolution, : 'or' to 'our' in last line
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
iano writes:
Which is exactly why your worldview makes no sense to me.. Your leaping ahead Crevo. If a machine then you cannot have an "opinion" or a "thought" or "explain" or any of the other things "you" are taking for granted here. You just said what the programme spat out. It has no worth as such. Gobbeldymook In the absence of an all knowing-creator god however.. we do have true free will.
iano writes:
And your world(God)view suggests.. even requires that free will is an illusion. so either free will is an illusion or you world(God)view is incorrect. Only if free will isn't an illusion can you even begin to talk about the boundaries in which that free will might operate.
I believe the latter.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
nope
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
iano writes:
which part? choosing to reject? or the implication that it implies we choose to accept? I don't hold so can you explain why it doesn't follow in your view?
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
iano writes: If, on the other hand we are created and free-will is rendered an illusion by Gods all-knowing then we are created biological machines and discussion is pointless here too. If no one is going to refute that position, then I agree discussion is pointless.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
iano writes:
Do you believe in an all knowing God? Furthermore, an acceptance of our having true free will (confined as above, perhaps) necessitates there being a creator God. Not necessarily all knowing (I haven't thought that far ahead), but if all-knowing, that factor cannot make our free will an illusion for the reasons already stated.
Do you believe we have free will? I have not seen reasons stated showing why an all knowing God cannot make free will an illusion. creavolution writes:
can you demonstrate to me how this is not the case?
you have a choice of A or BGod knows you will choose A you choose A (as god predicted) there was no chance of you choosing B...There was no real choice.. for a moment you had the illusion of choice, but you were always going to choose A. God knew that. He created you that way.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
ride safe
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
8mm??? aren't you turning corners at all? :b
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Iano writes:
Yes, I am trying to point out that an all knowing God, as per your belief, negates the possibility of free will in any real sense.
Similarily one must make certain assumptions in order to progress here. You easily accept that suspending disbelief for the duration of our 'study' involves accepting that a creator God exists. If you are discussing with a person of my persuasion and want to find out about my view then you need to suspend disbelief and accept that God to be all knowing - which you seem to have done. iano writes:
The first issue (free will being an illusion) makes the other two moot points. but the points can be treated seperately and in isolation, by making the correct assumptions for the purpose of that discussion. And, as our current impasse indicates you must also accept that his all knowing doesn't mean your free will is an illusion. For if you don't accept that, but accept the other two then we hit an impasse where were God exists, is all knowing - but we are machines. No further discussion about free will is possible because 'we' don't exist at all to 'discuss'. for instance
Creavolution writes:
the point here is what choice do we really have if we do not know what we are really choosing between? This can be treated separately from point 1. 2) Without the relevant information to make an informed choice our 'Free will' is not free at all.and Creavolution writes:
the point here is that according to your world view we simply do not even have the ability to choose what is right and what is wrong, what to believe and not what to believe. 3) Without the ability to even discern what information is correct (due to our 'fallen state'), free will is irrelevant, pointless, wasted. and point 2 doesn't even come into play. the three points combine to present a situation where: a)any free will is an illusion, although decisions are made the outcome is fixed and foreknown. there is no other optionb)The information is insufficient to make an informed decision. c)Further We do not even have the ability to make such a decision, regardless of the information presented. you can treat the points as interdependant (each being necessary but not suffiecient) if you like, but this is not necessary. nor intended to be so.It would be better if you addressed each of the points indvidually, they are standalone points in themselves and should be treated as such. I will concede that point 2 has weakened. I think sour said
Sour writes: and I can't disagree with that. We make choices based on incomplete information all the time.However is seems unfair for God to require us to make a decision (whether to reject him or not) based on incomplete information.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
iblis writes:
No.. but how is it free will if you already know hwere they will end up? Our ability to know the final outcome, as it happens, does not in any way prevent them from making whichever turns they make and certainly does not mean we somehow are forcing them to end up where they aresure.. they have the feeling of free will.. they are making choices, but their choices are a result of how you (their creator) has made them. You know where they will end up, there will be only one outcome. there is no free will. I am not saying that foreknowledge = interference, I am saying that foreknowledge means free will does not exist in any real sense. Iblis writes:
again I am not saying that foreknowledge = interference, merely that it negates free will. Free will cannot exist when the outcome is a foregone conclusion.
The outcome of those decisions are "already" known, but there is no reason that that knowing would constitute interference Iblis writes:
If you are the omnipotent creator, you created me knowing that at some point I would commit suicide, thereby damning my self to hell. But if I'm your omnipotent creator and already know you are going to make the plunge, and could reach out and make you fly instead, or change the past or create you differently or make sure you take your meds or whatever intervention might be suitable, and I don't, then I either a) value free will more than your safety for some reason or else b) don't really exist.from the moment I was born you knew I would commit suicide. you knew I would not make the decision not to commit suicide. the only outcome from this sorry affair is that I would commit suicide. In what sense did I have free will in this situation. I could not have chosen to live, because that was not the outcome foreknown by you.. my omnipotent creator.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
What we are discussing here is God's omnicience vs free will.
If God does not foresee the future, If the future is determined by our actions, then it is more likely free will exists as a reality. However, IF God, outside time, knows all things at all times in eternity... what will be will be, he knows that, he knows what I will have for breakfast tomorrow, he knows how many beers I will have tonight when I finish work, He knows what my average speed will be as i drive home from work..etc. etc. What 'choices' am I really making, if the outcome is already know?
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