Free will: an illusion

so.. 'with god all things are possible'? if thats the best you can do, there really is no point. IF every time an obstacle appears you magic it away by gods super powers.. there really is no point in discussion.
If God is outside time, past present future is simulanteous, like reader holding a book (to use Ianos favourite analogy) time as he looks at it is everchanging, as a consequence of our decisions. but yet, god knows (as he is all knowing) what every change will be, when and where it will happen... the same argument stands.. it is all foreknown, I have the choice of A or B, God knows I will choose A, it is inevitable.
the choice is an illusion. because the only outcome will be A, there is no option for B. god knows this. otherwise God is wrong. According to Xian teaching there most definitely is a right and a wrong one. I concede that we do not need all the information to make a choice. However.. Is is fair or just for God to ask us to choose or not choose based upon little more than hearsay? he "wants that all should be saved".. great.. I'm sure that most people would want to be saved, I am also sure that some people would not choose that path even if god appeared nightly on his own chat show. But as it stands, God chose to communicate with us through a 2000 year old text which is merely a rough translation, an interpretation of what was written. It tells me things like If I wear cloth made from different yarns it is an abomination, if I eat shellfish it is an abomination, etc. what exactly is there to imply that this book is little more than a collection of folk tales and the equivalent of public information broadcasts... Look.. according to the fundamentalists here (who this thread is aimed at) we cannot even determine geology correctly, genetics is something we misunderstand because we are fallen, In fact our own understanding of morality (tolerance of homosexuality, sexual equality) goes against the bible and is a result of our inability to see what is right. IF this is in fact correct, what makes you so sure you can choose, in an informed, intelligent way, whether or not to follow god... what makes you so sure you can even recognise God?Edited by Creavolution, : fixed quotes

apologies.. doneof course you could alway join in and explain your position on these three points?come on... you know you want to...

precisely... this is the problem with an all knowing god supposedly giving us free will... either
a)there is no all knowing god, or
b)We do not really have free will. The idea I have heard mooted by certain Xians who wish to remain un referred to, is that, God reaches out to us, we make the 'decision' whether or not to take him up on his offer. But god knows what decision we will make, so in Effect he creates us (or some of us)knowing that we will not choose him. or choose to accept his advances. i.e. doomed to eternal hell..
Nice.

If (what i believe) your idea of god to be exists... then yes.. exactly. We are nothing more that programmed machines playing out what he knows will happen. He created us with fallen judgement. so even if our choices actually represent free will.. they are hopeless as we cannot judge whether or not we make the right decision.You are saved? How do you know this.. by your own definition of the fallen state of mankind, your judgement will not allow you to discern this.

From your recent discussion with PY: So we do "choose" to reject...if we don't choose to reject our choice is to accept...Edited by Creavolution, : 'or' to 'our' in last line

Which is exactly why your worldview makes no sense to me..In the absence of an all knowing-creator god however.. we do have true free will. And your world(God)view suggests.. even requires that free will is an illusion. so either free will is an illusion or you world(God)view is incorrect.I believe the latter.

nope

which part? choosing to reject? or the implication that it implies we choose to accept?can you explain why it doesn't follow in your view?

If no one is going to refute that position, then I agree discussion is pointless.

Do you believe in an all knowing God?
Do you believe we have free will?
I have not seen reasons stated showing why an all knowing God cannot make free will an illusion. can you demonstrate to me how this is not the case?

ride safe

8mm??? aren't you turning corners at all? :b

Yes, I am trying to point out that an all knowing God, as per your belief, negates the possibility of free will in any real sense. The first issue (free will being an illusion) makes the other two moot points. but the points can be treated seperately and in isolation, by making the correct assumptions for the purpose of that discussion.for instance the point here is what choice do we really have if we do not know what we are really choosing between? This can be treated separately from point 1.
and the point here is that according to your world view we simply do not even have the ability to choose what is right and what is wrong, what to believe and not what to believe.the three points combine to present a situation where:a)any free will is an illusion, although decisions are made the outcome is fixed and foreknown. there is no other option
b)The information is insufficient to make an informed decision.
c)Further We do not even have the ability to make such a decision, regardless of the information presented.you can treat the points as interdependant (each being necessary but not suffiecient) if you like, but this is not necessary. nor intended to be so.
It would be better if you addressed each of the points indvidually, they are standalone points in themselves and should be treated as such.I will concede that point 2 has weakened. I think sour said and I can't disagree with that.
However is seems unfair for God to require us to make a decision (whether to reject him or not) based on incomplete information.

No.. but how is it free will if you already know hwere they will end up?
sure.. they have the feeling of free will.. they are making choices, but their choices are a result of how you (their creator) has made them. You know where they will end up, there will be only one outcome. there is no free will.
I am not saying that foreknowledge = interference, I am saying that foreknowledge means free will does not exist in any real sense. again I am not saying that foreknowledge = interference, merely that it negates free will. Free will cannot exist when the outcome is a foregone conclusion. If you are the omnipotent creator, you created me knowing that at some point I would commit suicide, thereby damning my self to hell.
from the moment I was born you knew I would commit suicide. you knew I would not make the decision not to commit suicide. the only outcome from this sorry affair is that I would commit suicide.
In what sense did I have free will in this situation. I could not have chosen to live, because that was not the outcome foreknown by you.. my omnipotent creator.

What we are discussing here is God's omnicience vs free will.If God does not foresee the future, If the future is determined by our actions, then it is more likely free will exists as a reality.However, IF God, outside time, knows all things at all times in eternity... what will be will be, he knows that, he knows what I will have for breakfast tomorrow, he knows how many beers I will have tonight when I finish work, He knows what my average speed will be as i drive home from work..etc. etc.What 'choices' am I really making, if the outcome is already know?