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Author | Topic: Could this really have happened? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Brian Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
What I am looking for are a few examples from the Bible of narratives that don’t quite sound plausible.
For example, is the following quote at all plausible?Exodus 1:15-19 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, "When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live." The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live. Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, "Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?"The midwives answered Pharaoh, "Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive." Was pharaoh so dumb that he wouldn’t have asked “why do they need midwives then? Another example would be Samson. Judges 16:17-22 So he told her everything. "No razor has ever been used on my head," he said, "because I have been a Nazirite set apart to God since birth. If my head were shaved, my strength would leave me, and I would become as weak as any other man." When Delilah saw that he had told her everything, she sent word to the rulers of the Philistines, "Come back once more; he has told me everything." So the rulers of the Philistines returned with the silver in their hands. 19 Having put him to sleep on her lap, she called a man to shave off the seven braids of his hair, and so began to subdue him. And his strength left him. Then she called, "Samson, the Philistines are upon you!"He awoke from his sleep and thought, "I'll go out as before and shake myself free." But he did not know that the LORD had left him. Then the Philistines seized him, gouged out his eyes and took him down to Gaza. Binding him with bronze shackles, they set him to grinding in the prison. But the hair on his head began to grow again after it had been shaved. How dumb is this passage asking us to believe that the Philistine’s were? If you read all of Chapter 16 you will see that it took a few attempts to find out the secret of Samson’s strength. So, after the secret is discovered the Philistines just sit back and watch Samson’s hair grow! Sounds just a little too silly for me. So, does anyone have any similar examples? If I could get a few for Friday it would be appreciated. I am going to discuss this with a few students and I’ll let you know how things go. I am open to the possibility that these narratives are completely plausible as I may be overlooking something, so I welcome any clarification of the cited passages, or any new passages donated by other members. Bible study for this if accepted. Brian.
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AdminNWR Inactive Member |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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lfen Member (Idle past 4708 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
Well, maybe everybody was just dumber in those days?
lfen
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Wasn't fermentation invented in Egypt? And isn't it pretty likely that Fetal Alcohol Syndrome wasn't something people were worried about? I suspect that just about everybody whose mother had access to alcohol was probably pretty retarded.
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 765 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
I Samuel 5 and 6 always seemed a little past bizarre to me: the Philistines take the holy Ark as spoils of battle, get smitten by death, mice, and "emerods", send the ark back home with little golden mice and emerods to make up for being meanies. And then when the ark got back to the Israelites, they set it on a stone, "19 And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
"Not quite plausible" seems a little charitable.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Was pharaoh so dumb that he wouldn’t have asked “why do they need midwives then? Because that's not the only function of a midwife?
How dumb is this passage asking us to believe that the Philistine’s were? I guess cavemen weren't "dumb" either. I think whether you imagine God is with you, or if God is actually with you or not, there is a power to be had in this. God gets rid of many fears for people. Science would even agree, that there is power in the mind. Take a look at martial arts, power lifting, etc. If you don't believe your going to break that board, or make that lift, you probably won't. Asl any professional baseball player about his routine before playing ball. I mean what does that have to do with his abilities? The power is in the hair dude
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Brian writes:
For example, is the following quote at all plausible?Exodus 1:15-19--The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, "When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live." The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live. Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, "Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?"The midwives answered Pharaoh, "Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive." Was pharaoh so dumb that he wouldn’t have asked “why do they need midwives then?Phat writes: No. The midwives were basically saying that the boys were born before they had a chance to interfere....it was a basic excuse. Another example would be Samson. Judges 16:17-22--So he told her everything. "No razor has ever been used on my head," he said, "because I have been a Nazirite set apart to God since birth. If my head were shaved, my strength would leave me, and I would become as weak as any other man." When Delilah saw that he had told her everything, she sent word to the rulers of the Philistines, "Come back once more; he has told me everything." So the rulers of the Philistines returned with the silver in their hands. 19 Having put him to sleep on her lap, she called a man to shave off the seven braids of his hair, and so began to subdue him. And his strength left him. Then she called, "Samson, the Philistines are upon you!"He awoke from his sleep and thought, "I'll go out as before and shake myself free." But he did not know that the LORD had left him. Then the Philistines seized him, gouged out his eyes and took him down to Gaza. Binding him with bronze shackles, they set him to grinding in the prison. But the hair on his head began to grow again after it had been shaved. How dumb is this passage asking us to believe that the Philistine’s were? If you read all of Chapter 16 you will see that it took a few attempts to find out the secret of Samson’s strength. So, after the secret is discovered the Philistines just sit back and watch Samson’s hair grow! Sounds just a little too silly for me.Phat writes: Yes. This one could be a bit silly. I always assumed that Samson left the area of confrontation for a few weeks while his hair grew...then came back into the area and confronted the Philistines, but what do I know>? I was not there! So, does anyone have any similar examples? If I could get a few for Friday it would be appreciated. I am going to discuss this with a few students and I’ll let you know how things go. I am open to the possibility that these narratives are completely plausible as I may be overlooking something, so I welcome any clarification of the cited passages, or any new passages donated by other members.
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Teets_Creationist Inactive Member |
This is a classic example of TRYING to find something wrong. That's shown true in your very first statement, "What I am looking for are a few examples from the Bible of narratives that don’t quite sound plausible." Well, I guess in your own mind, you may have found them, but you're asking the wrong questions. I guess what you should be doing, is looking at the government officials alive NOW, and wondering, "Why aren't they any smarter now, then they were during the Bible times?" After all, they have such great examples of what NOT to do. It is true, that it is easier to see the foolish mistakes of others, but don't come across like we are any smarter now. Just look at all the misinformation and foolishness in Iraq with the recent war. Look at all the government scandals and hypocrisy throughout time. Heck, many people (American or not) would say that George W. Bush is just as "dumb" as what you're claiming you wouldn't believe this pharaoh was. I think you also would have done well to look up what midwives do. My sister has had a midwife for all three of her children, and they don't just leave you hanging after the birth. What you want us to answer here, is so impossible, that we can only do what I have done, and used the good sense that God has given us. My question: You seem to see it so clearly, that these Biblical people are "dumb", based on them not seeing the evident truth around them. Then, what are you to the people who see the answers to your questions so clearly?
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CK Member (Idle past 4158 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
Paragraphs are your friends.
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5938 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
Brian
My favorite is Isaiha 38.8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down. Always loved that pre - Copernican thinking.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Well, maybe everybody was just dumber in those days? Yes, those damn pyramids were so easy to build There are other probs with the midwives' tale. Two midwives for 2.5 million people is a bit silly, as is pharaoh actually asking them to help in the first place. Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Because that's not the only function of a midwife? I thought about that and dismissed it because of what the text says earlier in the book. Exodus 1:16 When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool.... They do attend births.
The power is in the hair dude Indeed, so why did the Philistines allow it to grow back? Imagine, the only danger to you is if this guy grows long hair, you have him bound up in prison, do you let his hair grow? In fact, why wouldn't you just terminate him over at Delilah's pad? Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
No. The midwives were basically saying that the boys were born before they had a chance to interfere....it was a basic excuse. This isnt really what it says Phat. it says that Hebrew are not like Egyptian women, they deliver before the midwives get there. If they did then they don't really need a midwive to attend the birth. Don't you think that pharaoh would be a little suspiscious that all of a sudden Hebrew women started giving birth without any midwife in attendance?
Yes. This one could be a bit silly. I always assumed that Samson left the area of confrontation for a few weeks while his hair grew...then came back into the area and confronted the Philistines, but what do I know>? Come over to the dark side Luke Brian.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4990 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
This is a classic example of TRYING to find something wrong. That's shown true in your very first statement, "What I am looking for are a few examples from the Bible of narratives that don’t quite sound plausible." I explained why I wanted these references, I made no attempt to disguise anything. The references are for an introduction to the Hebrew Bible lesson, and it is to demonstrate that the Bible is a collection of texts from many different genres.
Well, I guess in your own mind, you may have found them, In any sane person’s mind as well I would add.
but you're asking the wrong questions. I guess what you should be doing, is looking at the government officials alive NOW, and wondering, "Why aren't they any smarter now, then they were during the Bible times?" After all, they have such great examples of what NOT to do. Hardly apt for a biblical studies lesson.
It is true, that it is easier to see the foolish mistakes of others, but don't come across like we are any smarter now. I think you are missing the point. The examples are not to highlight ”foolish mistakes’, because they aren’t mistakes. The examples demonstrate that much in the Bible cannot be taken at face value, we need to alter the way in which we read the texts, these examples reveal that the Bible includes many myths.
I think you also would have done well to look up what midwives do. My sister has had a midwife for all three of her children, and they don't just leave you hanging after the birth. As I already pointed out, the fact that they did attend births was the reason why pharaoh asked them to help out.
What you want us to answer here, is so impossible, Why is it impossible? It is very easy IMO to spot logical errors in the Bible.
that we can only do what I have done, and used the good sense that God has given us. I am using good sense, it is bad sense to believe that the pharaoh or the Philistines were as dense as the Bible makes them out to be. These tales smack of folk lore.
My question: You seem to see it so clearly, that these Biblical people are "dumb", based on them not seeing the evident truth around them. That really isn’t at all what I am claiming; I am claiming that these examples are evidence that the Bible contains folk lore and myths. It is because these stories are so illogical that it is difficult to take them at face value.
Then, what are you to the people who see the answers to your questions so clearly? Misunderstood. Brian
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
I thought about that and dismissed it because of what the text says earlier in the book. Well then it must have been God, and the king knew it. The mid-wives were lawful in what they said, and knew they could get away with it. The child births came easy to the Jews, because God was protecting them from what the king had ordered.
Indeed, so why did the Philistines allow it to grow back? The hair was a symbol of God's covenant with him. His power did not return when the hair grew back, but only after he reconciled with God.Possibly the philistines did not think he would get his power back, since he broke his covenant with God. Covenants were not a dime a dozen in those days.
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