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Author Topic:   Could this really have happened?
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 76 of 159 (319652)
06-09-2006 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by jar
06-09-2006 6:45 PM


Re: hair today goon tomorrow
You making up stuff about "Birth Hair" does not add anything to the story.
Please explain why "no razor to his head" was mentioned twice in Judges.
What's the point?
It grew back out. It was still the very same hair.
No it's not. It's hair from the very same head, or hair root, but it is not the very/exact same hair. Your into science, you should know this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by jar, posted 06-09-2006 6:45 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 06-09-2006 7:04 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 77 of 159 (319653)
06-09-2006 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by riVeRraT
06-09-2006 6:27 PM


Re: You are just making things up
If the power was not in his hair then why does the Bible point out this:
Judges 16:22
But the hair on his head began to grow again after it had been shaved.
Come on RR, how obvious does something have to be? The hair growing back is a literary device that informs the reader that Samson has his strength back. Why else mention it?
To follow your version it would be more plausible if the hair growing back was not mentioned, or the Philistines kept Samson's head shaved.
Also, as I have shown you, God was not always with Samson at a superhuman outburst.
Oh, and calm down, its only a story.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by riVeRraT, posted 06-09-2006 6:27 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 78 of 159 (319654)
06-09-2006 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by riVeRraT
06-09-2006 6:50 PM


riVeRraT writes:
What sense does it make to mention this, and what function does it have in the story.
Every blessed line in the story doen't have to be pivotal. Some of it is just there for interest. Look at Samson carrying away the gates of the city. Comic relief - not essential to the plot.
Also, why are you totally ignoring it?
Because it's totally irrelevant to the topic we're discussing.
I did not have a viewpoint on this when I entered this thread.
Neither did I. I never noticed how nonsensical it was until Brian pointed it out. Now you're making it even more nonsensical.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by riVeRraT, posted 06-09-2006 6:50 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 79 of 159 (319655)
06-09-2006 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by riVeRraT
06-09-2006 6:50 PM


Nazarite
He told her all his heart, and said to her, "No razor has ever come on my head; for I have been a Nazirite to God from my mother's womb.
Nazarites were forbidden to cut their hair RR, not just Samson, but any one who decides to become a Nazarite. They were forbidden to drink alcoholand ot touch dead bodies as well.
Long hair was a requirement for a Nazarite.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by riVeRraT, posted 06-09-2006 6:50 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by riVeRraT, posted 06-10-2006 9:42 AM Brian has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 80 of 159 (319656)
06-09-2006 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Brian
06-09-2006 6:56 PM


Re: You are just making things up
Brian writes:
To follow your version it would be more plausible if the hair growing back was not mentioned....
At the feast, somebody should have pointed at Samson and yelled out, "Oh, my God! His hair's grown back!" Then everybody would gasp and panic - but too late.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 81 of 159 (319659)
06-09-2006 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by riVeRraT
06-09-2006 6:53 PM


Re: hair today goon tomorrow
Please explain why "no razor to his head" was mentioned twice in Judges.
Because one of the things a Nazarite was not supposed to do was cut his hair. Or touch dead things. Or be violent. Just more examples of why the tale is fiction.
No it's not. It's hair from the very same head, or hair root, but it is not the very/exact same hair. Your into science, you should know this.
And you claim you are married.
Your wife ever get a haircut and her hair colored? When the hair grows back out, do the roots show the original color? Are you saying that the colored part is physically a different hair than the part showing the original color?
When I get a haircut, all the little hair stubbies don't fall out to be reploaced by all new hair. Now granted, that does happen whether you cut your hair or not so it is very unlikekly that Samson had even one of his "Birth Hairs" left when he got his shave and a haircut---two bits.
riVeRraT, you are free to believe anything you want, but the tale of Samson is a classic fairytale, just like Jack in the Beanstalk.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by riVeRraT, posted 06-09-2006 6:53 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by riVeRraT, posted 06-10-2006 9:38 AM jar has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 82 of 159 (319660)
06-09-2006 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ringo
06-09-2006 6:58 PM


Redacted text
Every blessed line in the story doen't have to be pivotal.
The stories in chapters 14-16 are not dependant on each other and can be read independently. Chapter 13 is believed to be a later addition that introduces the collection of folk tales about Samson.
Judges J. Alberto Soggin. London : SCM Press, 1981.
Brian.

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 83 of 159 (319911)
06-10-2006 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Brian
06-09-2006 6:56 PM


Re: You are just making things up
If the power was not in his hair then why does the Bible point out this:
Judges 16:22
But the hair on his head began to grow again after it had been shaved.
Ok, I am calm, as long as the discussion stays rational, and we don't make assertions about who and what we are.
I was wondering the same thing, what was the purpose of that verse. But if you read on one of the following verses says this:
28 Samson called to Yahweh, and said, "Lord Yahweh, remember me, please, and strengthen me, please, only this once, God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes."
So I asked myself, if the strength was in the hair, then why did Samson need to call out to God again, "just this once" and ask for strength.
The only logical conclusion I could think of is that they mention his hair growing back, to show that the power was not actually in his hair, but that he draws his strength from the Lord.
Also, as I have shown you, God was not always with Samson at a superhuman outburst.
I don't feel you have shown me this, only that some verses say by the spirit of the Lord, and some don't. God is always with us. But that is beyond the topic, and the question why did the philistines let his hair grow back?

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 Message 77 by Brian, posted 06-09-2006 6:56 PM Brian has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 84 of 159 (319912)
06-10-2006 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by ringo
06-09-2006 6:58 PM


Every blessed line in the story doen't have to be pivotal. Some of it is just there for interest.
Your making that up too, and adding to the story.
Because it's totally irrelevant to the topic we're discussing.
Maybe the one your discussing, but the one I am.
Neither did I. I never noticed how nonsensical it was until Brian pointed it out. Now you're making it even more nonsensical.
I can't help you then, your free to think whatever you want.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 06-09-2006 6:58 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 06-10-2006 1:02 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 85 of 159 (319914)
06-10-2006 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
06-09-2006 7:04 PM


Re: hair today goon tomorrow
Because one of the things a Nazarite was not supposed to do was cut his hair. Or touch dead things. Or be violent. Just more examples of why the tale is fiction.
None of those other Nazarites were supposed to delivery the Jews either?
Am I wrong for tying these two verses together?:
Judges 13:5 for, behold, you shall conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head; for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb: and he shall begin to save Israel out of the hand of the Philistines."
Judges 16:17 He told her all his heart, and said to her, "No razor has ever come on my head; for I have been a Nazirite to God from my mother's womb. If I am shaved, then my strength will go from me, and I will become weak, and be like any other man."
What's the correlation in what Samson is saying? Why even mention the hair, and the razor?
Are you saying that the colored part is physically a different hair than the part showing the original color?
If we examined the physical composition of the 2, we would find differences. I think that was a bad example.
When I get a haircut, all the little hair stubbies don't fall out to be reploaced by all new hair.
The clipping I have of my first haircut is very different from the hair I have now.
Besides, all that is not the point. When I say birth hair in this thread, I am refering to the topic we are discussion, which is Samson's hair, which we all know by the story that no razor had ever come to. That means the hair at the end of his long hair was the hair he had since birth, the same physical piece, and had never been cut. If your part of this conversation, then that should be the only logical comclusion that you could draw from the statement "birth hair" when taken in contenxt with this thread.
Any other reference to birth hair being the same as the hair you have now is just an attack on me, and what I said, and not relevant to the conversation, so yes I take it personally becasue I know your smarter than that statement. You know perfectly well what is meant by the expression "birth hair" in this thread.
riVeRraT, you are free to believe anything you want, but the tale of Samson is a classic fairytale, just like Jack in the Beanstalk.
And that has to do with what?
That has nothing to do with the topic, and is just another attack on me.
At no point in time did I ever claim that I believe the story, infact I have said just the opposite.
There were 2 points brought up in the OP, one of them has to do with Judges, and Samson, and the question was, "why did the phillistines let his hair grow back" I believe I have answered that question beyond a shadow of a doubt. It has nothing to do with what I believe in.
If your not going to believe in that story, it can't be for that reasoning behind that question, because it is an illogical question. You'll have to start another thread, and prove why the story is fiction.
If you read all of Chapter 16 you will see that it took a few attempts to find out the secret of Samson’s strength. So, after the secret is discovered the Philistines just sit back and watch Samson’s hair grow! Sounds just a little too silly for me.
It's not silly, and fits in with the story. So the story remains plausible, if that's the only problem you have with the story.
It was a perfectly logical decision that the Philistines made to let Samson's hair grow back, because they thought the power was in the hair that he had growing on his head from birth, and the fact that a razor was never taken to it. All they had to do was take a razor to it once, and they thought his power would be gone forever. And...holy crap, that is exactly what happened. His hair grew back, and he had no power. However the Philistines did not really know where he drew his strength from, and that was from the Lord, all Samson had to do was repent, and ask the Lord, and he got his power back.
All this makes perfect sense to me, as I see the power of the Lord work in a similar way in my life. We see it throughout the bible, in similar fashion.
Canwe find the Lord through the lessons in these stories? I answer a resounding yes!
Did the story actually happen or not? who cares,
It happens on a daily basis, the moral of the story.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 06-09-2006 7:04 PM jar has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 86 of 159 (319915)
06-10-2006 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Brian
06-09-2006 6:59 PM


Re: Nazarite
So why does he add the line:
If I am shaved, then my strength will go from me, and I will become weak, and be like any other man."
Just exactly where do you think Samson gets his strength from?
Don't forget what the angel of the Lord prophesised in chaptor 13.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Brian, posted 06-09-2006 6:59 PM Brian has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 87 of 159 (319940)
06-10-2006 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by riVeRraT
06-10-2006 9:13 AM


riVeRraT writes:
Every blessed line in the story doen't have to be pivotal. Some of it is just there for interest.
Your making that up too, and adding to the story.
I'm not making anything up or adding anything. I'm just suggesting that some parts of the story are not vital - like in any story.
In The Lord of the Rings, does it really matter what kind of cake they had at Bilbo's birthday party? Does it really matter what colour Aragorn's cloak was?
Every good story has more to it than just a synopsis of the plot.
Because it's totally irrelevant to the topic we're discussing.
Maybe the one your discussing, but the one I am.
The story you're discussing is full of made-up nonsense like "birth hair". The story I'm discussing is just what's in the Bible.
(Message 83) So I asked myself, if the strength was in the hair, then why did Samson need to call out to God again, "just this once" and ask for strength.
You're still missing the point that everybody is trying to explain to you:
Samson believed that his strength came from God, so he asked God to give him strength again - but the Philistines didn't know that. They thought his strength came from his hair.
That's the whole point of this discussion: since the Philistines thought his strength came from his hair, they would have kept it shaved off.
It just doesn't matter where his strength really came from. It was what the Philistines believed that determined their actions.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by riVeRraT, posted 06-10-2006 9:13 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by riVeRraT, posted 06-10-2006 11:27 PM ringo has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 88 of 159 (320317)
06-10-2006 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
06-10-2006 1:02 PM


I'm not making anything up or adding anything. I'm just suggesting that some parts of the story are not vital - like in any story.
Like throwing out the head of a perfectly good T-Rex, I guess.
In The Lord of the Rings, does it really matter what kind of cake they had at Bilbo's birthday party? Does it really matter what colour Aragorn's cloak was?
Every good story has more to it than just a synopsis of the plot.
Yea, understood, but why would you throw out the part of the story that is providing us with information that will influence the outcome of this debate?
Razor to Samons head is what the ring is to the Lord of the Rings. Not some cake.
The story you're discussing is full of made-up nonsense like "birth hair". The story I'm discussing is just what's in the Bible.
Holy shit, I don't think I've ever witnessed so much stupidity in any other thread in this forum.
And the hair was there since when?
Samson believed that his strength came from God, so he asked God to give him strength again - but the Philistines didn't know that. They thought his strength came from his hair.
Yes, I understand what YOUR saying, now try to understand what I am saying. IT wasn't just his hair. It was the hair on his head that had not been touched from birth, just like the story goes. Once cut, the power was gone FOREVER in the eys of the Philistines. Makes perfect sense, because the power was indeed gone, even though his hair grew back.
It's so obvious, that my 9 year old picked my version when I presented both cases from a moderaters perspective. I was curious to see which one he would pick, so I gave both a fair chance.
That's the whole point of this discussion: since the Philistines thought his strength came from his hair, they would have kept it shaved off.
That is not the whole point, that is the wrong point.
It just doesn't matter where his strength really came from.
Not to the Philistines, only to us, and Samson.
It was what the Philistines believed that determined their actions.
Now your starting to understand why they let his hair grow back. The Philistines believed they only had to cut his hair once, because it was never cut since birth. It's what they believed, what they did, and what happened. What's the problem?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 06-10-2006 1:02 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 06-11-2006 12:04 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 89 of 159 (320344)
06-11-2006 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by riVeRraT
06-10-2006 11:27 PM


riVeRraT writes:
...why would you throw out the part of the story that is providing us with information that will influence the outcome of this debate?
Razor to Samons head is what the ring is to the Lord of the Rings.
Nonsense. "Razor to head" is utterly, 100% irrelevant to the story of Samson. Samson could have had a haircut last week and the story would still be the same. They thought his strength was in his hair, so they cut it off. It doesn't matter how long his hair was, when he had last had it cut, what colour it was, what brand of shampoo he used. To the Philistines, hair = bad, bald = good. Period.
And the hair was there since when?
Doesn't matter. The point is hair or no hair. Nothing else.
Once cut, the power was gone FOREVER in the eys of the Philistines.
Nonsense. Samson told Delilah, "I have never had a haircut," and "my strength is in my hair." Delilah conveyed those two statements to the Philistines. There is nothing whatsover in the Bible that suggests in any way, shape or form, by any stretch of the imagination that cutting his hair would destroy his power forever.
Just the opposite. The clear implication is that they would have to keep his hair cut to deprive him of his strength.
... my 9 year old picked my version when I presented both cases from a moderaters perspective.
Interesting. I saw Peter, Paul and Moses playing ring around the roses - and they all thought your version was ludicrous. Peter was particularly amused by the "birth hair" thing.
It just doesn't matter where his strength really came from.
Not to the Philistines, only to us, and Samson.
And again, that is the point here: It was the Philistines who would have cut or not cut Samson's hair, based on what they thought - not based on what Samson thought or what you think.
Get that through your head: the "birth hair" is irrelevant. The "never touched a razor" is irrelevant. Samson calling out to God is irrelevant.
What is relevant is that the Philistines thought his strength was in his hair. Therefore, they would have kept it shaved off.
The Philistines believed they only had to cut his hair once, because it was never cut since birth.
Nonsense. The Bible says no such thing. They thought the power was in his hair. Period.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by riVeRraT, posted 06-10-2006 11:27 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by riVeRraT, posted 06-11-2006 12:36 AM ringo has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 90 of 159 (320365)
06-11-2006 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by ringo
06-11-2006 12:04 AM


Nonsense. "Razor to head" is utterly, 100% irrelevant to the story of Samson.
When asked where he got his strength from, his words were:
I amazed at your ignorance on this.
It doesn't matter how long his hair was, when he had last had it cut, what colour it was, what brand of shampoo he used. To the Philistines, hair = bad, bald = good. Period.
Then why did they let it grow back?
Doesn't matter. The point is hair or no hair. Nothing else.
You made that up.
Nonsense. Samson told Delilah, "I have never had a haircut," and "my strength is in my hair." Delilah conveyed those two statements to the Philistines. There is nothing whatsover in the Bible that suggests in any way, shape or form, by any stretch of the imagination that cutting his hair would destroy his power forever.
Ah ha!!! We are getting somewhere.
Nothing would destroy his power forever? Tell me, how would he get back his hair that was with him since birth?
The clear implication is that they would have to keep his hair cut to deprive him of his strength.
I know you think that, but that's not the case.
1. because it was his hair from birth
2 becasue they let it grow back
3 because he did not regain his strength after it grew back.
omg dude.
Interesting. I saw Peter, Paul and Moses playing ring around the roses - and they all thought your version was ludicrous. Peter was particularly amused by the "birth hair" thing.
lies, stay out the playground creep
It was the Philistines who would have cut or not cut Samson's hair, based on what they thought - not based on what Samson thought or what you think.
Yes, based on what Samson told them. That it was his hair from birth. Cut it, gone for good, bye-bye, adios, see-ya, wouldn't want to be ya, aloha, strength gone put another quarter in, to tired to pop, wimpy wimpy wimpy.
The "never touched a razor" is irrelevant.
You have not made a case why. You have only told us that is what you think.
The Philistines believed they only had to cut his hair once, because it was never cut since birth.
Nonsense. The Bible says no such thing. They thought the power was in his hair. Period.
They only cut his hair, cough, cough once.
If your right, then that measn the Philistines were retarded, and they didn't need Samson's strength to defeat them. They could have just told them some lame story and killed them all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 06-11-2006 12:04 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 06-11-2006 1:16 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
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