The Fact of Death

I often feel that. But when I do, I remind myself that I used to feel exactly the same when I was 21. Even at that age I felt that I'd done certain things wrong in an irrevocable way, that I'd never be able to make up for it, that my life was a failure because of it. But sometimes I was wrong then, and maybe I'm sometimes wrong now.Some of the things I've done, some of the things I've lost, are irrevocable, but living longer won't help that. However long I live, there's no way back.How old are you, rr? Are you really too old to make up for some of the things you've done? Or are the things that bother you most, like the things that bother me, irrevocable? I'm a pretty lazy person. Given an eternity I'd probably do very little. It has been the deaths of people around me, and the subsequent intimations of my own mortality, that have motivated me to do the little I have done. And when I start to slip, it's the reminder that death is just around the corner that keeps me up to the mark.How about you. If you had the whole of eternity, would you do things differently? Once or twice I've tried to correct mistakes that I'd made several years before. The funny thing is, the things that weighed so heavily on me, didn't look the same to other people. They were only important to me.

---

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

Is it a moral thing you're talking about, or an existential thing? Is it the wrongs you've done people that bothers you, or just the sense that you've wasted your life?

---

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

Really, iano, I found those nursery scare stories laughable even as a child. Why do you think they would hold any sway with an adult atheist?

---

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

Not so much an intellectual position, more an acknowledgement of what we all know deep down. That there are no gods or devils - just ourselves, sitting around a campfire, making up stories.

---

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

We know when we're deceiving ourselves. We don't need external evidence for that.This message has been edited by JavaMan, 05-09-2006 07:08 AM

---

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

Generally, the term 'consciousness' is used to describe all the brain activity you're conscious of (in contrast to all the unconscious brain activity). The term 'self-awareness' or 'self-consciousness' is used to describe that self-reflexive bit of consciousness that you and iano are discussing.I think the 'I' that you and iano have been discussing is not as paradoxical as it first appears. It is merely the function of your brain that allows you to focus and switch attention; just the same function that you use when reading a single line of text from a book, or attending to a ball racing towards you at 70mph. This function is separate from your memory or your individual thoughts, so when you are introspecting you can use it to examine them, just as you would examine something externally. But it is a mistake to think of this function as the essential 'you', for the following reasons:1. Everything you are conscious of in your mind is just a small part of what your brain and body are doing. You are observing just tips of icebergs when you self-consciously observe memories or thoughts;2. If you strip away memory, you strip away identity. Someone with advanced Alzheimer's is not essentially themselves, they have lost their identity;3. Similarly, if you strip away the ability to abstract and categorize things, you end up with more immediate experience of the distinctness of things, but we generally categorize this state as a form of autism, i.e. as a disabling condition, rather than something essential to being human.So that's my 10 euros worth. The observing self is just one function of the brain amongst many. In fact, in order to do things efficiently we often need to turn off this function to make sure it doesn't interfere. (This is what the notion of letting-go means to me).

---

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

Think of the observing self as just the tip of another iceberg. Above the waterline is consciousness; below are your unconscious brain processes. And now imagine that all these tips are just separate protrusions from the same iceberg. That's pretty much how modern science views the brain and consciousness.Your observing self is special in the sense that it is the centre of attention and decision-making, but it is no more essentially 'you' than your thoughts or memories alone are essentially you. A conductor on his own is just a man waving his arms in the air. My point is that the observing self, without the other things that make up identity (like memory and emotions) is just a shell or a ghost of an identity. It certainly doesn't seem to be the 'essence' of identity. As you've probably gathered, I don't believe there is a driver separate from the car .Preconscious Processing of Conscious ActionsHave you ever wondered why that observing self, despite appearing to be essentially you, never seems to have complete control over your thoughts and actions? Why, if it is the conductor, can you not just will a change in behaviour and find your behaviour changing rhythm obediently?I would argue that it's because the observing/decision-making self you're aware of is only the conscious part of a complex preconscious decision-making process. When you make the decision to move your arm, for example, there are a whole set of brain processes involved in making the decision. Your consciousness of having made a decision is, in a sense, a report of that decision, not the initiating force.You may find the above description difficult to accept, but there is a great deal of experimental evidence to support it. If the brain is monitored during decision-making tasks, it begins to generate the signals to perform the task before the subject is consciously aware of having made a decision. (Reference: Libet, B. (1985) Unconscious cerebral initiative and the role of conscious will in the initiation of action. Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 8, 529-566.)While we're on this subject you might find the following article interesting. It is surprisingly open in discussing theories other than the author's own! Preconscious Free WillThis message has been edited by JavaMan, 05-10-2006 09:53 AM

---

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

What do you mean by 'awareness'?

---

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

It seems to me that we're aware of two kinds of things: things outside our mind (what we see, hear, touch, etc.), and things inside our mind (thoughts, memories, feelings). Can you imagine having the first type of awareness without the second? And can you imagine functioning without either type of awareness?I had a strange experience a couple of years ago. We were sitting with friends in a beer garden, chatting. My daughter Freya, who was about 18 months old at the time, was using me and my chair as a climbing frame. At one point she fell off and I caught her, but strangely I had no conscious recollection of noticing her fall. One moment she was climbing over me, the next moment I was bent over slightly, holding her in my arms.This experience was pretty spooky, even for a materialist like myself, but I think it's understandable without recourse to supernatural explanation.Our sensory input takes several parallel paths through the brain, and only some of these pathways lead to conscious perception. For example, there are at least three pathways for visual stimuli. One of these passes through the visual cortex and seems to be responsible for our conscious awareness of seeing. The other two pathways, which are much faster and completely unconscious, are responsible for (a) moving the eyeball to focus on an area of movement in the visual field, and (b) preparing the body for action. My interpretation of what happened to me is that some unconscious pathway such as (b) moved my body to catch Freya before the conscious pathway completed its processing.We depend on these unconscious pathways between sensory input and movement all the time when we play fast sports (which is why so much stress in sports psychology on quieting the conscious mind - when the conscious mind tries to interfere, it slows down reaction times). When we're living at a slower pace, conscious processing has the time it needs, and consequently plays a larger part in our response to situations.So back to the original questions I asked. What would life be like without any form of conscious awareness? What does that conscious awareness add to our ability to respond to the world?And secondly, what would life be like if we had conscious awareness of external things, but no conscious awareness of our own thoughts, memories or feelings? What advantage is there is that self-awareness? Yes, I wonder whether a chimp has a sense of 'I', or a dog, or a snail. Does a plant have a sense of 'I', or is that self-awareness dependent on having a brain, or a brain that has a cortex, or a brain that has the particularly complex cortex of a human?

---

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

You're confusing my knowledge of my own internal state, which I can be certain of, with my claim to know that nobody can successfully deceive themselves.I don't need external evidence to know when I'm deceiving myself, and you don't need external evidence to know that you are deceiving yourself. In fact, no external evidence could ever confirm that knowledge.

---

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

I wasn't clear whether Ifen was meaning "awarenss" in the sense of being conscious of one's own thought process, or in the sense of being conscious generally, i.e. of external things as well as internal things.By the way, considering some of our previous discussions, you might be interested in this neuroscience article on free will I dug out for iano. It's well written and seems pretty up-to-date. The author also discusses several different theories in addition to his own. Preconscious Free Will

---

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

Nice story. Yes, that's exactly the kind of experience I was talking about. And from what you and Ifen have said, not so uncommon.I agree with your later post to iano. I don't believe it's some kind of superhuman ability, either. The unconscious processes seem to be the source of action even when we consciously perceive what we're doing. It's just that sometimes the event happens so fast that conscious processing doesn't have time to complete. That wouldn't be entirely surprising, considering the amount of meditating they do. How we use the mind affects how it works. But there may also be an element of sudden insight, a sudden realization of the relationship between things that changes the way you look at the world (as you mentioned in your post to iano).I used to meditate a lot when I was younger, and I wish I still did. The repeated practise changes the way you respond to the world, but if you stop doing it, you lose those good behavioural habits. However, you do gain a different perspective on the world, and this different perspective stays with you long after you've lost the behavioural changes.But I'm not a sage, so take my thoughts with a pinch of salt .

---

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

There are forms of Pure Land Buddhism that take exactly the same faith-only position that some Christian Protestants do. I quoted a description of one of these sects during a discussion with Faith: Is Calvinism a form of Gnostic Christianity? Message 25 [The Jodo Shinsu ('True Pure Land') sect]

---

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible