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Author | Topic: What's the best strategy for defending evolution? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Aximili23 Inactive Member |
There's recently been a minor controversy in the blogosphere regarding the best way to defend evolution and increase its acceptance among the American public. It starts with a remarkable exchange between Michael Ruse and Daniel Dennett, in which they discuss, among other things, the damage that vocal atheists such as Dennett and Richard Dawkins have done for the cause of evolution. A good quote:
Michael Ruse writes: I think that you and Richard [Dawkins] are absolute disasters in the fight against intelligent design - we are losing this battle, not the least of which is the two new supreme court justices who are certainly going to vote to let it into classrooms - what we need is not knee-jerk atheism but serious grappling with the issues - neither of you are willing to study Christianity seriously and to engage with the ideas - it is just plain silly and grotesquely immoral to claim that Christianity is simply a force for evil, as Richard claims - more than this, we are in a fight, and we need to make allies in the fight, not simply alienate everyone of good will. The claim is that by lambasting all of religion rather than just anti-evolutionism, as Dawkins, Dennett, and many here at EvC forum do, evolution defenders simply strengthen the false belief that evolution=atheism, thus making their message thoroughly unpalatable to people of faith, including pretty much all creationists. Two evolution defenders within the blogosphere, PZ Myers and Jason Rosenhouse, disagree. Jason writes:
Jason Rosenhouse writes: Now, I happen to share Dennett's and Dawkins' contemptuos attitude towards Christianity, but that's not the part I want to comment on. Rather, I want to challenge this idea that the atheism of Dawkins and Dennett hurts the cause of promoting quality science education. This assertion is frequently made but it is never backed up with anything. Is it really true that the strident atheism of people like Dennett and Dawkins negatively influences the way people look at evolution? If that's true, it certainly paints a bleak picture of many religious people. If I argued that I would be symapthetic to evolution, except that I see people like Ken Miller, John Haught and Simon Conway Morris drawing theistic conclusions from it, I don't think Ruse would show me much respect. After all, evolution should sink or swim on the basis of the relevant evidence. If that evidence is strong, it should not matter what Dawkins or Dennett (or Haught or Miller or Conway Morris) thinks. Arguing that strident atheism hurts the cause is remarkably condescending towards religious people. It's saying that they are too emotional to understand and think seriously about the evidence. It's saying that those people can't be expected to provide an honest assessment of the evidence because mean old Richard Dawkins made a snide remark about their religious views. And PZ Myers agrees:
PZ Myers writes: Bravo. Ruse is echoing a common tendency, the habit of trying to hide away the atheists on the side of evolution”it's also represented by that common adjective, "strident". You can't be a plain-spoken advocate for common sense and the avoidance of absurd superstitions, no matter how hallowed by time and tradition, without getting called "strident", "dogmatic", and "fundamentalist" over and over again, as well as being told, in more or less these words, to sit down and shut up and quit scaring away the rubes . while every scientist who makes room in his head for a little credulity towards ancient myths is treated as a special gift to the cause of reason. It's extraordinarily irritating. Can we get a little consistency, please? We need more atheists speaking out”that's how we're going to get people used to the fact that we exist. The fact that we are content to work with the religious, while many of the religious will not reciprocate that tolerance and even some of our fellow scientists want to hide us away, is a good example of who is holding the moral high ground here, and Ruse's condemnation is yet another reason why I don't hold much respect for the guy. But another pro-evolution blogger and writer, Chris Mooney, disagrees with the pro-atheist strategy, saying that people base their opinions on far more than just a dispassionate view of the evidence. He says:
Chris Mooney writes: First, let's tackle the assertion that there's no evidence that attacking religion hurts the pro-evolution cause. Hmm...let's just say that Rosenhouse is perhaps not thinking creatively enough. Maybe such evidence does exist, but there are good reasons for keeping it out of the public arena, no? Or, maybe such evidence doesn't exist but that's because it isn't needed--i.e., it's obvious that attacking religion is divisive and not helpful to the cause of promoting the teaching of evolution. More interesting is the second argument here: Those who claim that attacks on religion undermine science education are demeaning the intelligence of religious folk, says Rosenhouse, by suggesting they can't look dispassionately at scientific evidence when their faith is under fire. Not exactly: If anything, we're demeaning the intelligence of everyone, whether religious or otherwise. What we're saying is that people rarely make up their minds solely on the basis of evidence; all sorts of subtle cues, prejudices, and societal factors condition their responses to political issues (an assertion, by the way, which is backed by loads of evidence). In this situation, one of the strongest societal cues we have to deal with--a cue coming out of countless churches--is the contention that evolution kills God, therefore evolution can't be right. I don't care if it's rational or not, it's strongly believed. If people are told they must choose between evolution and their faith, guess which one is going to get pitched in the garbage? That's the real hurdle here, and that's precisely what Dawkins and Dennett don't help us to overcome. My question to you guys is, of course, what do you think? When people defend evolution by vociferously attacking christianity or religion, do they hurt rather than help the promotion of good science education? For additional context, see what PZ Myers and Chris Mooney have already written last month on the topic. This message has been edited by Aximili23, 02-25-2006 12:53 PM
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Aximili23 Inactive Member |
Like all the adminstrators say, attack the position not the debater, if the person comes from a position of religion you have to sometimes attack relgious ideas, but its preceved sometimes that the person is being attacked when they are not. I'm not sure that this is relevant. Atheist evolution defenders usually do attack the position, and yes in many cases religious ideas. But what I'm asking is whether or not these attacks on religious ideas, and particularly the idea of theism, is damaging to the cause of science education and acceptance.
As for the whole evolution=atheism, it is purely untrue and subscribing to the idea that it is, would just make more and more people turn from science, thus making it harder for science to move forward. evolution isn't atheism, since it isn't religous in nature, how would we detect god? No serious evolutionist is saying that evolution=atheism, this is an argument you usually hear from creationists. But this argument is perceived when famous evolution defenders such as Dawkins are also vocal atheists. It strengthens the impression that evolution is a necessarily atheistic belief, rather than a well-supported scientific theory. In a way, my question can be rephrased as, should people like Dawkins censor themselves, or their atheistic arguments, so that evolution can be more widely accepted by the public?
if you have to criticize religious belief it should have a context, such as people using the bible to prove their religious views People can criticize religious belief simply in the context of the broader culture wars. Some people perceive religion, or particularly fundamentalism, as an imposition of morals by one group on another, and on this basis alone I think it's perfectly appropriate to criticize certain religious views. With evolution as one of the many issues within the greater culture wars, and with atheists and church-state-separationists usually on the same side as evolutionists, the association between evolutionism and atheism can be created. Do you agree with this or not?
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Aximili23 Inactive Member |
So you don't think that attacking religion is damaging to the popularization of evolution?
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Aximili23 Inactive Member |
to say there is no god, then yes it would damage theists views of science. I'm glad you do.
if his views boil down to saying there is no god and science shows it, then yes he should, since he is giving a false perception of scientists and science In my opening post I linked to something written by PZ Myers, one of the most famous science bloggers in the blogosphere. He argues that while yes, science is by definition neutral with respect to theism, the kind of critical thinking fostered by science is antithetical to religion:
quote: (Take the time to click the link and read the whole post, I think it's quite good). My point in mentioning this is that it may not be too inaccurate to create a link between science and atheism. Atheism and agnosticism are after all highly overrepresented among scientists, as compared to the rest of the population (I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that upward of 60% of scientists are atheists). Myers would likely argue (I think he has) that by portraying evolution as religion friendly, the core principles of critical thinking and following the evidence are diluted, or even betrayed.
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Aximili23 Inactive Member |
The battle isn't one of tricking people of faith into accepting evolution. The battle is one of teaching people to think rationally, scientifically, about the world they live in. Of what possible use is it to believe in evolution just because somebody told you that you were allowed to? We're trying to get people to think about the world in a rational way, not present evolution in a light that seems acceptable to a superstitous mode of thought. Teaching people to think rationally and critically sounds very idealistic, but in the short term I don't think it's a viable strategy. Creationism is an emotional, faith-based belief that by definition rejects logic and evidence. Presenting solid arguments and data isn't that effective; people are rarely going to listen. How many times has evolution been clearly explained to creationists in this very forum, only to have them obstinately cling to lies and fallacies? And these are creationists who have taken the time to actually visit an online forum. Most others will just hear this sort of thing from the news, or their churches. In the loud and fast-paced world of mass media, there's very little time and patience for a proper education of a complex science. So unfortunately, yes I do think that the battle is in part of tricking people of faith into accepting evolution. I suspect that the recent Evolution Sunday event as led by the clergy has probably been far more persuasive to the general public than lengthy journal articles and speeches by scientists. (Never mind that it's the latter that contains more solid facts and logic). Intelligent design, for all of its vacuousness, has been such a strong rallying point for the religious right precisely because it's such an ingenious marketing strategy, with fancy terms like "irreducible complexity" and a "Teach the controversy" slogan. I think that scientists also need to adopt similar (although more honest) PR tactics if they want to get their message across. There should be a stronger appeal to emotion, and an emphasis on short simple messages that can spread easily (the FSM being perhaps an excellent example, if it weren't antagonistic to religion). The bottom line is, people ARE superstitious; polls have repeatedly shown that more than half of Americans believe in some form of creationism, and they have for decades. So if scientists want to get people to accept evolution, then they absolutely DO have to present it in a light that is acceptable to a superstitious mode of thought. Hopefully in the long run, through a solid and well-founded elementary and high school public education, Americans can be taught to think rationally and have a greater trust and appreciation for science. But in the short term, scientists will need to resort to trickier tactics.
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Aximili23 Inactive Member |
To answer your question then I would say if the religion, including that of christianity, is using aspects of religion in a scientific frame then then it has entered the ring and must fight. Yes, there's no doubt that there's a theism/atheism debate that goes right alongside of the evolution/creation debate (as well as the pro-choice/life debate, stem cell research debate, and many other issues of the culture wars). Christians do object to evolution on religious grounds, and these objections are shot down when subjected to critical analysis and evidence. But consider what happens when a religious, uninformed person (nearly everyone in the US) witnesses such a debate. Perhaps I'm just extremely cynical, but I don't think he's going to carefully consider the arguments and then think "Oh, those are excellent arguments against my religious beliefs; I'll have to convert to a different faith." No, he'll instinctively think "That scientist guy is attacking religion and implying that there's no God; he therefore can't possibly be right". Sometimes the quality of the argumentation doesn't matter, or isn't enough. The debate has to be framed in a way that makes evolution acceptable on a more instictive, emotional level.
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Aximili23 Inactive Member |
You can't lie for truth; you'll get caught every time. And when you do it makes people wonder "if what he was trying to get across was true, why did he have to lie to do it?" I was going to object to this by pointing out that creationists are caught lying all the time, and they're still going strong. And then I read the rest of your post:
It's unfair but true. Lying and deciet are tools that Americans will only allow Republicans and creationists to employ. With this, I totally agree.
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Aximili23 Inactive Member |
IMHO the best strategy is to keep pointing out that religious people, particularly Christians do accept Evolution. We need to make it crystal clear that there really is no controversy. Then perhaps you agree that, strategically speaking, atheists should censor themselves, or at least their atheist views? Or that theistic evolutionists should be put in the forefront of the debate?
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Aximili23 Inactive Member |
I think that's absolutely a mistake. For one thing, we'll never be as good at lying as the creationists are. You can't lie for truth; you'll get caught every time. Yes, I agree that evolutionists should never resort to lying. But I'm a little conflicted here; I sort of agree with Dawkins and Myers that scientific thinking would tend to weaken religious faith. But I also think that this opinion should be downplayed by evolutionists engaging in debate. Which, as robinrohan had amusingly pointed out, is not quite the same as lying, but is sort of deceitful nonetheless. Anyway, to get some insight on what other possible strategies might be adopted to defend evolution, check out this article by Chris Mooney.
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Aximili23 Inactive Member |
Actually, to be frank, I don't care if people accept evolution or not. Accepting evolution on its own, as if it were some sort of abstract belief, doesn't sound very important. But in a wider context, the evolution issue is central to how science is perceived in America. A recent TIME article discussed how the US is losing its lead in science and technology, in part because of a dumbing down of science education and a declining interest in science among the youth. When there's this failure to properly educate kids about science, you create a generation that isn't up to developing the technologies needed to keep industry and the economy afloat. Furthermore, you create a culture that distrusts scientists and their findings, which can be disastrous when it comes to policy making. Today, we already see a large proportion of the public that distrusts stem cell research, and a government and industry that ignore the findings of climate scientists with respect to global warming. And when people don't trust science, it doesn't get funded, which only makes things worse. And an understanding of evolution specifically, and not just science in general, is necessary in certain fields, especially biomedicine:
quote:http://www.cell.com/content/article/fulltext?uid=PIIS0092... (emphasis added by me) So I think it's important that scientists develop more effective strategies for making evolution more widely accepted by the public, and especially the youth. It's not just an abstract battle about personal belief.
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Aximili23 Inactive Member |
But reality will win out. Even if 100% of the public were Biblical Creationists, all it would mean is that they are wrong. No, it would also mean that biomedical research would grind to a halt. Opportunities to improve health and save lives would be lost. Not to mention the catastrophic effect on industry and the environment if that kind of scientific ignorance were so widespread.
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