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Member (Idle past 6094 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: When is a belief system a Mental Disorder? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
SuperNintendo Chalmers Member (Idle past 6094 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
I was just reading an article about a man who believed God told him to kill someone and even though he didn't want to do it he felt he had to obey the word of god (his lawyers are claming the insanity defense).
This got me thinking.... Many people hold views that clash with objective reality. When does holding irrational beliefs become a mental disorder? When do these belief systems become a concern for society? I'm interested in all views on the subject and any research that has been done. Some examples of views that seem to clash with reality and may or may not be evidence of mental problems: Belief in Magic, Spells, Wizards, Witches, etcBelieving the world is 6000 years old Believing that you get 72 virgins through suicide bombing Believing that Aliens built the Pyramids Belief in crazy conspiracies (think Timothy McVeigh) Other cult beliefts (ex. UFO cult that committed suicide) I'm interested in where the line is drawn between just being a "bit of a loon" and having a mental disorder. Here's a link to the article that got me thinking: A Killing in God's Name And another that discusses this concept as applied to fundamentalism: http://betterhumans.com/.../tabid/79/Column/313/Default.aspx I guess part of the discussion might involve how to define a mental disorder.... This message has been edited by SuperNintendo Chalmers, 02-14-2006 12:03 PM This message has been edited by SuperNintendo Chalmers, 02-14-2006 09:58 PM
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3983 Joined: |
We would need to try to apply the "Please think and post messages carefully" guidlines in this topic.
Is this a "Faith and Belief" forum topic? Please, more input from other admins. Adminnemooseus
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SuperNintendo Chalmers Member (Idle past 6094 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
Moose, I do admit this has the potential to get quite heated.
I certainly didn't intend this to be a "let's bash fundies because they are crazy" thread. I would certainly welcome people to present any other belief systems that people might argue are mental disorders or have qualities that might be considered evidence of a mental disorder. Maybe a better title would be, "Is fundamentalism an example of a belief system that could be considered a mental disorder".
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AdminOmni Inactive Member |
...by discussing
How Do We Distinguish Faith from Delusion? or When Does Personal Belief Become a Public Concern? or something of that order. If the question begins by positing the notion that fundamentalists suffer from a mental disorder, even presented as a question, I think we will quickly descend into a flame war. But if we can discuss how to determine whether a personal belief crosses the Rubicon into a personal delusion/pathology and/or a public concern, maybe we can discuss general criteria before applying them to specific cases.
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SuperNintendo Chalmers Member (Idle past 6094 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
Would you like me to re-phrase the first post?
I could approach the topic like you said "When does a belief system border on/become a mental disorder?" What types of belief systems are dangerous to the public body? The article on fundamentalism could be used as only one example. I would personally welcome the other side to try and argue that atheists are nuts if they would like
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AdminOmni Inactive Member |
Having offered my input, I would prefer to defer to Moose.
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SuperNintendo Chalmers Member (Idle past 6094 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
I re-wrote the OP to be more general and not just about fundamentalist x-tianity.
Faith and Beleif is fine if you choose to promote. Thanks!
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4755 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 4188 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
I think that it is entirely possible that many of the more millitant 'crazies' listed above may in fact have a sociopathic difficulty, i don't think that having 'irrational' beliefs constitutes mental disorder. i think it would instead qualify as wittgensteinian 'mistakenness'.
any outside mental disorder may facilitate millitant reactions, but belief systems are not symptomatic of this i think. i have decided recently that i no longer believe that the dirty towelheads had anything to do with september 11 and it was instead perpetrated by the government a la reichstag. does this make me crazy? no. but it may be exemplary of the way my brain interprets information. this may be environmental or inherent.
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9012 From: Canada Joined: |
i think it would instead qualify as wittgensteinian 'mistakenness'. What is that?
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 4188 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
in the book 'on certainty', wittgenstein suggested that one may be 'mistaken' without being wrong. i think it has something to do with being intellectually distant.
honestly, i read the book five times and never quite got it.
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SuperNintendo Chalmers Member (Idle past 6094 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
The following section of an article really struck me:
Imagine that you're a psychiatrist. A new patient comes to see you and says that he regularly talks to an invisible being who never responds, that he reads excerpts from one ancient book and that he believes wholeheartedly that its contents must be accepted implicitly, if not taken literally. The patient goes on to say that that the world is only 6,000 years old and that dinosaurs never existed. He brazenly rejects modern science's observations and conclusions, and subscribes to the notion that after death he will live in eternal bliss in some alternate dimension. And throughout your meeting, he keeps handing you his book and urging you to join him, lest you end up after death in a far less desirable alternate dimension than him. Is this a mentally healthy person? If you were a responsible psychiatrist, how could you answer yes? These symptoms border on delusional schizophrenia, which the American Psychological Association's DSM-IV describes as involving a profound disruption in cognition and emotion, assigning unusual significance or meaning to normal events and holding fixed false personal beliefs. So, should you insist on follow-up appointments along with some strong medication? Well, quite obviously, the patient is a religious fundamentalist. So he would most likely not be diagnosed with a psychological problem. In fact, such a diagnosis could land you in hot water; the patient's religious beliefs are constitutionally protected. Yet, perhaps it's time this changed, and that we made religious fundamentalism a mental and cultural health issue. People should be able to believe what they like, but only so long as their convictions don't harm others or, arguably, themselves. Fundamentalism, however, breeds fanaticism and often leads to terrible violence, injustice and inequality. If society can force drug addicts into rehabilitation because they're a danger to themselves and the public, then we should be able to compel religious fundamentalists to undergo treatment as well. Think about it... If someone expressed this exact same belief set to you but replaced all references to "god" with references to "aliens" most people would think they were a total raving lunatic. Someone people aren't insane if their crazy ideas have a religious basis. Of course, I for one am totally for freedom of religion and speech... so people are free to believe what they want as long as they don't harm anyone. In my book it becomes harmful when you have a cult that doesn't allow modern medicine (remember the girl that almost died of a common infection until the courts intervened and gave her anti-biotics? Or a jehovah's witness who gets in a car accident and lets their child die rathe than receive a blood transfusion).... It's an interesting question. If we dress up insane beliefs as religion does that somehow make them more valid?
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
The patient goes on to say that that the world is only 6,000 years old and that dinosaurs never existed. He brazenly rejects modern science's observations and conclusions, and subscribes to the notion that after death he will live in eternal bliss in some alternate dimension. And throughout your meeting, he keeps handing you his book and urging you to join him, lest you end up after death in a far less desirable alternate dimension than him. Think of the alternative--what sort of world one is faced with if one accepts evolution--and that sort of religious view seems emotionally understandable at least, whereas a mother killing her children because a voice told her to is not emotionally understandable.
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Phat Member Posts: 18656 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
mini ditka writes: I think that the line is drawn when an individual hangs out excessively with other like-minded individuals OR when a person has an unhealthy interest in a narrow belief that is unproven in any sense.
I was just reading an article about a man who believed God told him to kill someone and even though he didn't want to do it he felt he had to obey the word of god (his lawyers are claming the insanity defense).This got me thinking.... Many people hold views that clash with objective reality. When does holding irrational beliefs become a mental disorder? When do these belief systems become a concern for society? what defines objective reality?
I'm interested in all views on the subject and any research that has been done.Some examples of views that seem to clash with reality and may or may not be evidence of mental problems: Belief in Magic, Spells, Wizards, Witches, etc Phat writes:
Believing the world is 6000 years old I have seen experienced what I honestly believed to be unexplained phenomena, but I think it is unhealthy to dwell on such stuff!Phat writes:
Believing that you get 72 virgins through suicide bombing We honestly do not know for sure how old the world or the known universe is. Its enough to say its older than we are!Believing that Aliens built the Pyramids Phat writes:
Belief in crazy conspiracies (think Timothy McVeigh) Its only because the pyramids exceed human capabilities in a practical sense. Aliens are mathematically plausible, however...from a scientific standpoint.Other cult beliefts (ex. UFO cult that committed suicide) I'm interested in where the line is drawn between just being a "bit of a loon" and having a mental disorder.
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Dr Jack Member (Idle past 136 days) Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: |
If you believe Great Kinon is speaking to you, you are mad.
If a thousand of you gather to worship Him, you are a cult and you will be watched, mocked and maybe feared. But if a million of you gather and worship Him, you are a religion and I will respect and tolerate your beliefs. This message has been edited by Mr Jack, 02-15-2006 07:27 AM
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