Cartoons and common sense

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How many Christians have flown airplanes into tall buildings, or blown themselves up in busy commuter trains? How many Jews?

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Very few. Christians and Jews blow up buildings and commuter trains remotely, firing missiles from afar.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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The culture that finds them reasonable can consist of one person, or a mob of people.

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Or an oppressed people that have no outlet for their fustrations or avenues to make positive changes in their lives.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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OK, point taken.

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Damn. I was hoping to get an argument from you, and use this as a segue to make the points that Omnivorous ended up making.What is lacking in this thread is any mention of the geopolitical and historical context in which these events are occurring.Now, my initial reaction to the Muslim protests is that this paper and the Danish govenment should have flipped them all the finger. I still feel that way, but that is because of the personal distaste I have for dogmatic religions.On the other hand, if an American newspaper published cartoons, say, of Martin Luther King, Jr., in an unflattering racial stereotypical manner and subsequently there were riots in several US cities, my first reaction would not be to condemn the riots, nor would condemnation of the riots become my main response to these hypothetical events.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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It could be seen by some that certain cultures have too many outlets and avenues for their desires and frustrations to be expressed. And that it would be better for everyone if these were reigned in

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Which seems to be the attitude of the Muslims (at least some of them) in this case.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Hi, iano.Yes, your statement is so obviously true that I cannot think of any comment to make on it.Cheers.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Unfortunately, I have do not believe that there is an objective standard by which to judge moral decisions; if I were to assume that there were an objective standard, I have very little idea of what that standard is; and this doesn't have anything to do with God, since the existence of an objective standard does not imply the existence of a deity, nor does the existence of God imply that there is an objective standard.Heh, I knew that this was what you were leading to, iano.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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You should not assume that saying anything you want does not come without consequence if you insult Islam.

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Quite true -- if one makes the choice to say something that someone else finds insulting (and just about anything will insult someone, I suppose), it would be prudent to expect that there may be retribution.Of course, that applies anytime anyone may feel insulted, whether it is Muslims, vegetarians, white supremists, drug dealers, or pedophiles. So it may be prudent to make sure that what you say will not insult Muslims, vegetarians, white supremists, drug dealers, or pedophiles.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Heh heh. Alright, all Muslims in unison now:"B-b-b-but that's different!"

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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I don't advocate violence, I advocate education.

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A noble goal indeed. But is there anything that is "educational" in your posts?

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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However, unlike in America where religion is not part of law, Islamic countries need a branch that represents Islamic law.

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Is this anything like the way South Africa "needed" apartheid to preserve its way of life?

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You are improperly comparing a religion to South Africa's power policy based on race.

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No, I am making a quite proper comparison. I am comparing how people in power in South Africa making laws that affect how the entire population will live their lives despite the fact that some did not want to live in that manner with people in power in an "Islamic" state would make laws that affect how the entire population will live their lives despite the fact that some would not want to live in that manner.Or would an Islamic state allow excemptions to people who would have a different interpretation of Islam, or for those who would not want to live by Islamic principles at all?--

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If you favor elections in Islamic countries, then let the people decide on whether an Islamic branch is part of it and part of constitution.

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I would have no objection to the people making such a decision according to the democratic process. The democratic process includes the rights to free speech, freedom of assembly, and to enact their decisions into state policy. I am completely confident that in a true democracy, it would not take long before the people decide that they have no desire to maintain state enforcement of religious laws, and then the religious laws would be dumped.IANAT, it is actually the religious leaders and traditional power centers that would end up having to subvert democracy and the will of the people to maintain religious based laws.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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That islamists, and moslems in general, need to actually learn real history outside of the koran.

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I have always felt that much of the Islamic extremism is a result of the pressures placed on the Third World by continuing economic imperialism by the West. I would imagine that if Westerners, especially Americans, were "educated" about current events, especially how the very comfortable middle class lives of Westerners, comes at the expense of rather intense exploitation of people in the Third World (as well as marginal populations in the West itself), then it would be much easier for toleration and diversity to exist in these societies.Barring that, instead of yelling at people about how hateful their culture is, maybe trying to get them to see that we have a common enemy, mainly the power centers of the West and the Islamic societies would be more productive.A bit off-topic, and maybe you resent being "educated", but you were the one to bring up the need for "education".

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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Your comparison is improper:
- Apartheid has no basis from faith in a religion.
- Islamic law would be derived from the Quran, which the majority of people support.

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My comparison is proper. Your distinction is an arbitrary one and based on an a priori desire to promote Islam and discourage South African apartheid. It makes no difference whether a political system is founded on something that is aribitrarily classed as a religion or whether it is founded on something that is arbitrarily classed as a non-religion. What matters is whether the end result is the same. In this case, we have two systems of government that regulate the lives of people in ways that the people themselves do not desire.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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If certain muslims can't live in countries with freedom of speech (ALL speech) peacefully then those certain mulsims should be deported.

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Well, except that many, if not most, of these Muslims in the West are citizens of the countries in which they reside, some even natural born citizens.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

No problem, Chalmers -- hell, I enjoy going off the deep end from time to time.-

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Large amounts of muslim immigrants who are having trouble integrating into liberal societies.

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And the question one could ask is how much of the trouble is due to the white Europeans themselves presenting barriers to integration, and another question is how much of the violence and harsh rhetoric that we see is due to the fustration these barriers produce.Again, I think it may be instructive to step back a bit and look at the entire political and socialogical, and even the geopolitical and historical, contexts in which this controversy is playing out.Let me bring up an earlier analogy. Suppose that an American newspaper were to print cartoons of Martin Luther King, Jr., in unflattering, racially stereotypical manner; suppose that, as a result, riots broke out in several urban areas. I'm sure that you would not promote the riots, but would the riots themselves be your primary concern? Or would you view the riots (and the cartoons themselves) as manifestations of larger cultural phenomenon that would need to be addressed?

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt