EvC Forum: could moses have written the first five books of the bible

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Topic: could moses have written the first five books of the bible

purpledawn

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Posts: 4453

From: Indiana

Joined: 04-25-2004

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Message 211 of 242 (278262)
01-11-2006 5:59 PM

Reply to: Message 191 by idontlikeforms
01-11-2006 4:06 PM

Re: Pentateuch Claims

quote:
We've already gone over this purple and as I feel I gave a good answer to this already, I don't want to repeat myself.

Actually we haven't.

quote:
Except that Moses is the only person being said to be writing part of the Pentateuch in the Pentateuch. Furthermore, these passages in question say things about him writing "the Law." Other Biblical authors later use the same term refering to the Pentateuch and Moses having written it, so do Rabbinic scholars. So ya passages saying Moses wrote the "law" in the Pentateuch are technically ambiguous. But interpretting it to mean "the Law" has alot of external support.

You have not shown evidence that the "scroll of Moses/Law" referred to within the five books is the same "Scroll of Moses/Law" being referred to by later tradition or that it encompasses the first five books.

You have not shown that other Biblical authors are referring to the first five books as a group. You have not supported your viewpoint.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't repeat yourself, but would show support for your position.

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
	Message 191 by idontlikeforms, posted 01-11-2006 4:06 PM		idontlikeforms has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 220 by idontlikeforms, posted 01-13-2006 3:37 PM		purpledawn has not replied

purpledawn

Member (Idle past 3488 days)

Posts: 4453

From: Indiana

Joined: 04-25-2004

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Message 212 of 242 (278267)
01-11-2006 6:18 PM

Reply to: Message 207 by idontlikeforms
01-11-2006 5:27 PM

Re: Laban & Jacob J & E Versions

quote:
To me the story already makes sense. I see no reason to suppose multiple original authorship. I think it's possible that Moses used more than one source, but I see no reason to have to assume this.

Just because you think the story makes sense isn't support for your position of Mosaic authorship.

You cannot reconcile the differing details of the agreement and Jacobs statements to support one author.

Please provide evidence that the story holds together.

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
	Message 207 by idontlikeforms, posted 01-11-2006 5:27 PM		idontlikeforms has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 224 by idontlikeforms, posted 01-13-2006 3:44 PM		purpledawn has replied

purpledawn

Member (Idle past 3488 days)

Posts: 4453

From: Indiana

Joined: 04-25-2004

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Message 213 of 242 (278272)
01-11-2006 6:33 PM

Reply to: Message 196 by idontlikeforms
01-11-2006 4:31 PM

Jewish Reform - Second Century BC

quote:
I already explained this to you. It is the ancient Rabbinic tradition that matters, that is what is closer to the time of the authorship of the OT, and its canonization.

According to the History of the Jews, Jewish intellectuals felt that the Law, as it was currently written, was not very old and certainly did not go back to Moses.

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
	Message 196 by idontlikeforms, posted 01-11-2006 4:31 PM		idontlikeforms has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 214 by ramoss, posted 01-11-2006 10:54 PM	purpledawn has replied
	Message 227 by idontlikeforms, posted 01-13-2006 3:50 PM	purpledawn has replied

purpledawn

Member (Idle past 3488 days)

Posts: 4453

From: Indiana

Joined: 04-25-2004

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Message 217 of 242 (278382)
01-12-2006 5:43 AM

Reply to: Message 214 by ramoss
01-11-2006 10:54 PM

Re: Jewish Reform - Second Century BC

Hey ramoss,

This was from "A History of the Jews" by Paul Johnson, page 101.

It was apparently about 175 BC, but it looks like Antiochus Epiphanes was a little too enthusiastic about the reform movement and how it would help his own agenda. His extreme measures caused a backlash, which as I understand it lead to the Maccabean incident.

Does all that sound about right or did I misunderstand?

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
	Message 214 by ramoss, posted 01-11-2006 10:54 PM		ramoss has not replied

purpledawn

Member (Idle past 3488 days)

Posts: 4453

From: Indiana

Joined: 04-25-2004

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Message 223 of 242 (278715)
01-13-2006 3:40 PM

Reply to: Message 219 by idontlikeforms
01-13-2006 3:32 PM

Authors and Sources

quote:
Actually I just took a look at the passages in question and it seems to me that beginning with Genesis 2:4, another source was likely used. I'm guessing this is your take on the matter too and as "Lord God" is then used in instead of "God" it makes sense too.

Are you saying two different authors or are you saying Moses, as the author or compiler, used a different source for his information?

We are saying that the stories were written by two different authors and stuck together later by a redactor.

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
	Message 219 by idontlikeforms, posted 01-13-2006 3:32 PM		idontlikeforms has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 225 by idontlikeforms, posted 01-13-2006 3:48 PM		purpledawn has not replied

purpledawn

Member (Idle past 3488 days)

Posts: 4453

From: Indiana

Joined: 04-25-2004

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Message 228 of 242 (278722)
01-13-2006 3:51 PM

Reply to: Message 224 by idontlikeforms
01-13-2006 3:44 PM

Re: Laban & Jacob J & E Versions

quote:
I already did this Purple, just like I already expounded on my argument for "law" referring to the Law. And I do not care to go over it again. No offense Purple, but I find it annoying that I give an argument and point to evidence to support it and use logic and then you keep saying over and over that I haven't done squat and then keep demanding that I address the issue. It's highly annoying.

One cure for that is to refer (link) the questioner back to where you gave the supporting argument and evidence, so you don't have to restate it.

Posts and arguments can be missed, especially really long ones.

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
	Message 224 by idontlikeforms, posted 01-13-2006 3:44 PM		idontlikeforms has not replied

purpledawn

Member (Idle past 3488 days)

Posts: 4453

From: Indiana

Joined: 04-25-2004

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Message 234 of 242 (278737)
01-13-2006 4:25 PM

Reply to: Message 227 by idontlikeforms
01-13-2006 3:50 PM

Re: Jewish Reform - Second Century BC

quote:
Ancient rabbis certainly did beleive Moses wrote the Pentateuch. This is common knowledge. And if you're challenging this, you need to provide evidence.

I did. See Message 217.

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
	Message 227 by idontlikeforms, posted 01-13-2006 3:50 PM		idontlikeforms has not replied

purpledawn

Member (Idle past 3488 days)

Posts: 4453

From: Indiana

Joined: 04-25-2004

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Message 237 of 242 (278761)
01-13-2006 5:32 PM

Reply to: Message 236 by ramoss
01-13-2006 5:22 PM

Sadducees

Hey ramoss,

As I understand it, the rabbinical tradition sprang from the Pharisees or vice versa.

Did the Sadducees feel that Moses was the author of the First Five Books? Do we know what they thought?

Thanks

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
	Message 236 by ramoss, posted 01-13-2006 5:22 PM		ramoss has not replied

purpledawn

Member (Idle past 3488 days)

Posts: 4453

From: Indiana

Joined: 04-25-2004

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Message 240 of 242 (278882)
01-14-2006 7:01 AM

Reply to: Message 239 by arachnophilia
01-13-2006 5:53 PM

The Exile

In the book by Johnson, A History of the Jews, I found this information interesting.

Thus scattered, leaderless, without a state or any of the normal supportive apparatus provided by their own government, the Jews were forced to find alternative means to preserve their special identity. So they turned to their writings - their laws, and the records of their past. From this time we hear more of the scribes. Hitherto, they had siply been secretaries, like Baruch, writing down the words of the great. Now they became an important caste, setting down to writing oral traditions, copying precious scrolls brought from the ruined Temple, ordering, editing and rationaliziing the Jewish archives. For a time indeed they were more important than the priests, who had no temple to underline their glory and indispensability. The exile was conducive to scribal effort.

I think the rabbinic tradition grew from this rationalization. The oral Torah is supposed to make sense of the written Torah.

Johnson goes on to mention that the ordinary Jews were apparently not taught in the Law.

If the individual was responsible for obeying the Law, he must know what the Law is. So it must not merely be set down and copied, but taught.

This is probably the reason the Deuteronomic author added:

Deuteronomy 6:6-9
"These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.
You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

It also seems that the ordinary Jews were not practicing the rules of purity, cleanliness or diet.

Hence it was during the Exile that ordinary Jews were first disciplined into the regular practice of their religion.

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
	Message 239 by arachnophilia, posted 01-13-2006 5:53 PM		arachnophilia has not replied

purpledawn

Member (Idle past 3488 days)

Posts: 4453

From: Indiana

Joined: 04-25-2004

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Message 241 of 242 (278883)
01-14-2006 7:02 AM

Reply to: Message 239 by arachnophilia
01-13-2006 5:53 PM

The Exile

Deleted Double Post

This message has been edited by purpledawn, 01-14-2006 04:29 PM

This message is a reply to:
	Message 239 by arachnophilia, posted 01-13-2006 5:53 PM		arachnophilia has not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 242 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-14-2006 2:58 PM		purpledawn has not replied

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