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Author Topic:   could moses have written the first five books of the bible
ramoss
Member (Idle past 643 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 68 of 242 (275650)
01-04-2006 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by idontlikeforms
01-04-2006 2:39 AM


On calling the 'answers in genesis' silly. ..
If a web site deny's 99% of scientific evidence for the age of the earth, evolution, physics, and astrophysics, based on their religious beliefs, I have to assume anything they say about anything is extremely biased.

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 Message 65 by idontlikeforms, posted 01-04-2006 2:39 AM idontlikeforms has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 643 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 104 of 242 (276141)
01-05-2006 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by idontlikeforms
01-05-2006 3:46 PM


Re: documentary hypothesis
The problem is the 'evangalistic' scholars are starting out with the assumption that 'The bible is inerrent', and ignore any evidence to the contrary. If you look at the 'statement of faith' of many of the institutions that these 'evangalistic' scholars work at, the conclusion is stated before the invesigation of the evidence.
IMO, that taints their objectivity.

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 Message 103 by idontlikeforms, posted 01-05-2006 3:46 PM idontlikeforms has replied

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 643 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 112 of 242 (276199)
01-05-2006 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by idontlikeforms
01-05-2006 4:14 PM


Re: documentary hypothesis
A true scholar takes a look at the evidence, and goes where the evidence leads them.
And yes, the evangalistic's DO ignore the evidence. When it comes to the
authorship of the pentach, they choose to try to explain away the arguements of the moderate and liberal scholars.
Those who think there are 5 books of moses have several authors point to the syntax, the grammer, the different use of words, and the disagreement in the couplets, as well as some anacrohonism (such as the list of the ebomite Kings.
The first person on record to start to question if Moses was the author of the the pentauch was in the 11th Century , by Isaac ibn Yashush. This makes the doubt belief it wasn't written by Moses pretty old.
Just how DO you explain the anacronism of the list of Edomite kings?

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 Message 107 by idontlikeforms, posted 01-05-2006 4:14 PM idontlikeforms has replied

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 643 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 118 of 242 (276306)
01-06-2006 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by arachnophilia
01-06-2006 3:23 AM


Re: documentary hypothesis
For the most part, I know words here and there, and to be able to say things by rote.
That is not a very good attempt at trying to resolve the anacronism at all. Of course, there are other anacronisms too.. such as calling "Ur" the name "ur of the chaldees". This is an anacroism, since during the time of Moses, Ur was a summarian city, and it wasn't until decades after Moses that it was taken over by the chaldees.
Not to mention that the description of the Ark of the Convent violated the very laws it was supposed to have housed.. (Graven images).

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 643 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 165 of 242 (276931)
01-07-2006 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by macaroniandcheese
01-07-2006 10:11 PM


Re: J & E Sources
One thing I like about that Jewish tradition of study is that is encourages questioning, and thought. The traditional method of studying Talmud is debating it. .. That mindset definately gets away from the 'Yes man' (not that there aren't Jewish scholars equally stubborn, but disagreement isn't a cause for saying someone is evil , or doesn't have 'faith'.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 643 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 169 of 242 (277142)
01-08-2006 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by arachnophilia
01-08-2006 1:12 AM


Re: J & E Sources
At least. There is a concensus on a number of issues though.
There is mainstream thought... and variations of it. For example, you will not find a Jewish source that will claim that "Adam's fall corrupted mankind and caused original sin" and that "man is stained with sin at birth". You might get a lot of variations about what the story teaches, but that is not in the Jewish mindset.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 643 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 214 of 242 (278326)
01-11-2006 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by purpledawn
01-11-2006 6:33 PM


Re: Jewish Reform - Second Century BC
Do you have a suggested reference for that?

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 643 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 236 of 242 (278757)
01-13-2006 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by idontlikeforms
01-13-2006 4:32 PM


Re: when logic breaks down
Well, I can assure you that if you bother to read Isaiah 53 in context, it is not talking about Jesus at all. The vast majority of Rabbi's don't consider that passage messanic. The writer of Isaiah 53 says exactly who the servant of the Lord is. That is the nation of Israel.
Note: Israel is called 'JACOB' traditionally.
Chapter 41:8 But you, Israel My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham, who loved Me, 9 Whom I grasped from the ends of the earth, and from its nobles I called you, and I said to you, "You are My servant
Chapter 44:1 And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen. 2 So said the Lord your Maker, and He Who formed you from the womb shall aid you. Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Jeshurun whom I have chosen. ... 21 Remember these, O Jacob; and Israel, for you are My servant; I formed you that you be a servant to Me, Israel, do not forget Me.
Chapter 45:4 For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you (i.e. Cyrus) by your name;
Chapter 48:20 Leave Babylon, flee from the Chaldeans; with a voice of singing declare, tell this, publicize it to the end of the earth; say, "The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob."
Chapter 49:3 And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."
So, repeatedly, just before Chapter 53, the servent is identified as Israel.

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