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Author Topic:   Difference between religion and science fora
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 56 of 81 (228525)
08-01-2005 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by ringo
08-01-2005 1:20 PM


Re: Randman for moderator
I completely disagree. A primary condition for being a board moderator should be the ability to moderate oneself. His entire posting style consists of either snide retorts or are constructed in the following format:
1. Insert something vaguely on topic.
2. Insist that because of Haeckel all evolutionists are frauds.
3. Victoriously conclude that evolution is defeated.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 08-01-2005 1:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by ringo, posted 08-01-2005 5:08 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 59 of 81 (228532)
08-01-2005 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
08-01-2005 3:16 PM


Construction of a rabid YEC argument
This is off topic. Please, no replies. --Admin
Step 1. Paint a picture of your opponents argument with as much derogation and as little support as possible.
What a laugh, Percy. Unparalleled success in explaining. Sure, with imaginative scenarios that ignore everything that contradicts them.
Step 2. Mainstream scientists should always be referred to with distain as some kind of empty, fairy tale inventing, crackpots who not only are unable to see contradictory evidence, but are all either consciously or subconsciously involved in some kind secular indoctrination.
The "Depositional environments" idea doesn't account for the actual evidence as I just wrote Arkansas Banana Boy on the Reasons for Rejecting ToE thread, but it sticks despite its absolute absurdity precisely becasue it CANNOT be falsified as it is nothing but an imaginative scenario, however bad, and because so much is invested in this stuff by scientists.
Step 3. Create a philosophical argument to allow nonsense to enter the discussion. Scientific theories are just fairy tales for which many different alternate explanations can be made.
You can make the scenario "account" for the data because there is NO way to test it, to falsify it. Why isn't this obvious? It's all a big STORY wrapped around selected data, data which is just as well explained a number of other ways.
Step 4. Now is the time to shine! Describe your personal layman interpretation and associate it on an equal level with the rigorous study of thousands of the world’s greatest minds across the centuries.
Everything that supposedly proved descent for instance is JUST as well accounted for by DESIGN instead. JUST AS WELL.
Step 5. Make a completely inappropriate analogy. This is a good time to do it to cover up for the blatant insult you just delivered to world renowned professionals throughout the ages. In particular, equating man made mechanical things to life is effective against the evilutionists because they can be shown to be subtly the same despite the fact that mechanical things do not reproduce. Mousetrap and motorcycles should be avoided. Try to think of something original!
A fleet of cars of different makes, models, sizes, colors, engine power etc., but still all cars because of their BASIC DESIGN similarities, and not descended from one another.
Step 6. You must make the opposition idea seem obviously inferior due to inherent flaws. Do not be bothered trying to enumerate flaws just simply acknowledge they exist. Getting into a discussion about the DETAILS of a flaw is not recommended as you will be putting your opponent in a position to make a rational argument against you.
There's LOTS of evidence that doesn't fit the evo framework but it is made to fit by one sort of rationalization or another.
Step 7. Historical scientific progress is ALWAYS a weakness. Were they not smart enough to get it right the first time? Why are scientists always disagreeing on things and changing their "theories"? The Bible never changes and since the Origin of Species is the Bible to evilutionists, any attack upon the original framework of evolution is a valid blow to modern synthesis.
No transitionals? Oh but ALL are transitional. Well they don't LOOK like it, they look like separate groupings. Oh well but everything is a transitional and we'll just define our terms to say so and then you can't dispute it. No gradations? Oh but obviously there were great sudden leaps to explain it, punctuated equilibria.
Step 8. No matter what happens they always have no evidence for their position. It is irregardless how much time, if any, you have spent actually looking to see if they really do have evidence. Even if they have just presented you with evidence, simply wait until you think they have forgotten and state once again that they have no evidence. Attempts to further politely show you the evidence should always be met with accusations of no evidence.
Well obviously that was the case because there's the reptile down there and the bird up there and we KNOW they are related by descent because of the order of their appearance in the column so obviously things just kind of plateaued and then jumped. Yeah, hundreds of times. No evidence, but the thinnest possible plausibility.
Step 9. Whenever given the opportunity, always casually dismiss fields of inquiry that are too complicated or require too much effort to understand.
And genetics shows only similar design between orders and phyla too, just as well explained by design as by descent. JUST AS WELL. But descent is popular despite the absolute lack of proof. Sigh.
This message has been edited by Jazzns, 08-01-2005 01:55 PM
This message has been edited by Admin, 08-01-2005 04:40 PM

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This message is a reply to:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 60 of 81 (228534)
08-01-2005 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
08-01-2005 3:16 PM


Explanation of previous post
After posting my most recent reply Message 59, I felt that my motivation behind it with regards to the topic of this thread should be explained.
I read the post many times and I felt that I really needed to respond to it. The more I looked at it the more I simply could not find one rational, discrete thought for which I could even begin to construct a response. That led me to start thinking what about the structure of the post was so difficult to address. Then it came to me, it was all nonsense and it is very difficult to reply to nonsense. In particular, it was a buffet of nonsense consisting of small pieces of larger nonsense from various other places in the forum. How would one even begin to address each one of the items listed without having to go into a lengthy discussion involving background and recent developments for each part only to then have it casually dismissed later as so many have done before.
That is why I constructed my reply as I did. Simply breaking the nonsense down and calling it like it is.
With regards to the whole seperation of fora. I feel that the new fora are primarily being used to house these nonsense discussion about topics that should legitimatly be in the science fora. What is the good of talking about sedimentation in a particular thread if they only defense needed to support your position is akin to, "It is inconcievable that sediments would sort themselves out in neat layers over MILLIONS Of years!" At that point you are not having a discussion with someone, you are simply putting out a rebuttal hoping that someone else on the board or a lurker will appreciate it. The entire point of the debate has been reduced from an intellectual engagement of an opponent to a nonsense juggling fiasco.
This message has been edited by Jazzns, 08-01-2005 02:18 PM

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 08-01-2005 3:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 08-01-2005 4:15 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 64 by Percy, posted 08-01-2005 4:49 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 62 of 81 (228540)
08-01-2005 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
08-01-2005 4:15 PM


Re: Explanation of previous post
This is off topic. Please, no replies. --Admin
At one point in the past myself and others were perfectly willing to engage you in a legitimate discussion. I remember the first thread you came in on about mutations. I carefully crafted quite a number of posts to you describing the evidence we have that mutations exist and that they do produce novelty. None of these were even replied to; even with a polite promise to return to them. You still had the benefit of the doubt back then.
Then there was a new geology thread which distracted you away from the evo side of things. I stayed out of it as much as I could but at some point I felt that an amature's description of things would help you be able to participate in a more rigerous way. Since I had once been a YEC, was a Christian, and an amature at the debate, I thought somehow that we could connect. We sorta did.
Then there was the whole original Islam thread. Lets ignore that shall we since it was not related to EvC. The result from that thread though was a desire not to debate with you further.
I changed my mind when the sediment thread came up. I remembered that we had some good discussion on the previous geology thread and I still had hopes that our common ground could lead to a productive discussion. In that thread I tried VERY hard to honestly, patiently, and polietly address each of the things you were so incredulous about with regards to modern geology. What I got back was antagonism.
So now here we are. How am I now supposed to treat your posts now after so many failures? Especially now that you have the warm and fuzzy realm of the new fora to basically go buck wild with your style of debate without ever having to acknowledge that your style and attitude have been nothing but a hinderance to your argument for your entire history here at EvC.
It is not that people have not wanted or tried to connect with you, it is simply that they could not. You were so intriguing at first because you were a YEC that seemed smart and fun to engage. In reality it is nothing but pretty window dressing on the same old disappointment.
This message has been edited by Jazzns, 08-01-2005 02:37 PM
This message has been edited by Admin, 08-01-2005 04:39 PM

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This message is a reply to:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 65 of 81 (228550)
08-01-2005 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Percy
08-01-2005 4:49 PM


Re: Explanation of previous post
That seems just fine but that is not how it is being moderated. Sift through Why TOE is not accepted and you find many an instance of exactly what I described occuring. I know moderating is a busy job and it is volunteer but lately it seems like, "if you don't catch the cat in the act you can't punish them because they wont understand." The mandate seems to come from the whole, "I don't have to make any sense because this is not the science fora." That is the attitude being portrayed and I if not many others are getting quite frustrated with it.

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This message is a reply to:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 69 of 81 (228558)
08-01-2005 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by CK
08-01-2005 5:22 PM


Re: deleted by author
He he.
Yet another symptom of rampant nonsense discussion. Cynicism abounds. One has to look no further than simple's thread and they myriad of posts about the Invisible Pink Unicorn. I believe there was even a whole page dedicated to pure cynicism regarding the farts of the IPU.
Although these are mightily funny. Is this really the type of discussion we want to foster on a regular basis given the "free reign" practices now in the non-science fora?
This message has been edited by Jazzns, 08-01-2005 03:33 PM

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by CK, posted 08-01-2005 5:22 PM CK has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 78 of 81 (228816)
08-02-2005 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Admin
08-02-2005 10:07 AM


Re: Proposal
I think your proposal would make things better. I have nothing wrong with your original explanation of it:
Percy writes:
There is not yet unanimity of opinion among moderators about the religious fora, but I've been arguing strongly that nonsense is nonsense no matter where presented, and that it should not permitted under any circumstances.
Participants should be required to support their points with argument and evidence as much in the religious fora as in the science fora. The difference is that religious arguments and religious evidence are permitted in the religious fora.
This is in stark contrast to what is actually being done as evidenced by:
Faith writes:
You objected first of all on the thread where we were invited to give our reasons for not accepting the ToE, in the Religion section, a context in which evidence should not be demanded at all.
I personally think it is just fine whichever way you decide to do it as long as it is actually moderated that way. NO matter what, arguments require support regardless if they are scientific.
This message has been edited by Jazzns, 08-02-2005 09:36 AM

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This message is a reply to:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3941 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 81 of 81 (228856)
08-02-2005 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Admin
08-02-2005 10:07 AM


Re: Proposal
More examples of the pristine standards some people are being held to here. Faith characterizes her argument as 'unassailable'.
Message 276
This is all done in the name of the new fora. It is used as a place to sit and preach and get angry when someone......oh no.....debates you!
Really, if all they want is a place to rant they should go make a blog. This is a debate board, not a place to list creationist's rants.
This message has been edited by AdminJar, 08-02-2005 12:05 PM

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