Mr Ex Nihilo writes:
Does anyone feel that I've dealt unfairly with Legend or Faith here? What Faith and I don't agree on is whether the Pauline writings were written with the specific intention of damning those that do not believe in Christ. I specifically disagree with the "assumption" that "Paul is unambiguously saying in Romans that no one can be saved by deeds of the law -- or only by faith in Jesus for that matter."
No, I don’t believe you have dealt unfairly with Legend or Faith in the general sense. There may be specific exchanges that cross the line, I don’t know, this is a very long thread. But I think the overall debate has been well represented on both sides.
I‘ve looked through the thread and tried to find a few quotes that summarize the positions on both sides:
Mr Ex Nihilo writes:
I maintain that many Christians do not believe that Paul is unambiguously saying in Romans that no one can be saved by deeds of the law -- or only by faith in Jesus for that matter.
And I've pointed to many denominations that do not think this is what Paul is saying -- because they all agree in one form or another that people who do not believe in Christ can nonetheless be saved by Christ.
Mr Ex. I believe these statements summarize your position very well and also this one:
Mr Ex Nihilo writes:
Although none of these groups are in exact agreement as to how these people can be saved,
all are agreed in one form or another that Christ can nonetheless saves those that do not know him or have confessed his name anyway.
Faith’s point:
Faith writes:
You haven't shown this from Romans 1-7. You quote other statements by Paul in many of his other letters but never once quote from Romans 1-7.
The other passages you quote are addressed to believers, those who already have faith in Christ, and are about how we are to walk in the Holy Spirit now that we are saved. They are not about the point at issue, which is Paul's presentation of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in the first chapters of Romans.
And Legends response:
Legend writes:
Listen Mr Ex., enough beating around the bush, does Paul say we can only be saved by faith or not ?
If no, tell me what he says about how we can be saved.
If yes, isn't the implication that people who don't know jesus (and can't have faith in him) will not be saved?
There are several excellent issues here:
- Is salvation by faith alone?
- In Romans, is Paul excluding any other means of salvation other than by faith?
- If People don’t know Jesus or the Gospels, will they be saved?
I’ll respond to these but my response will be in the context of my own interpretation. I will not speak for others nor am I responding to what various denominations believe.
I’ll start with ‘A: Is salvation by faith alone?
Tough question, This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology and is the main cause of the Reformation. It’s also a question whose answer affects B and C.
Orthodox Christians says no and Fundamentalist Christians says yes. To me, the issue rest with the word alone. This means that faith alone is needed for salvation. I believe this to be true, but i also believe this does not imply exclusivity, meaning no other way to salvation acceptable. I don't believe the case is made in Romans. So considering Romans 1-7, do those verses clearly describe salvation by faith alone? Yes, in that only faith is needed for salvation, but that doesn't address exclusivity.
NASB writes:
Rom.1:16-17 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, but the righteous man shall live by faith.
This is just of one of many examples that point to salvation by faith and in my mind there is no question that Paul is revealing a salvation by faith alone. But is it by faith alone
and to the exclusion of other paths to God? I don’t see it here.
Continuing in Romans,
NASB writes:
Rom 2:6-11 - (God) will render to each person according to his deeds. To those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.
Here, Paul speaks of works impartially judged by God and the corresponding rewards and penalties. Perseverance in doing good works leads to eternal life. Not by following the Law and there is no mention of faith here. I believe these passages would cover those people who lived in areas of the world which have not been exposed to the Christian message. Or perhaps they were born at a time when the Gospel had not reached their locale.
There are other passages in the Bible that imply that such individuals will be lumped together with those who had heard and rejected Christ's message. They would remain unsaved and will spend eternity in Hell, because salvation is only through faith in Christ.
Those Christian denominations which believe in a literal Hell of eternal punishment are faced with a serious conflict: It is difficult for them to maintain the traditional belief that non-Christians will be sent to eternal punishment in Hell. A growing percentage of people believe that this is incompatible with the concept of a loving God and elementary justice.
They ask how a person in India or Africa who has never heard of Christ or of Christianity be tortured for eternity, mainly because they lived in the wrong part of the world. Or for that matter, a person who has been raised in another religion and has only peripheral knowledge of Christianity.
Some might argue the punishment of the ignorant will not be as severe as those who willfully reject the Good News. But to me, any punishment of the ignorant would be an injustice.
Continuing with Romans:
NASB writes:
Rom 3:20-28 - because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.
This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Here Paul is reinforcing his supporting arguments for salvation by faith through the revelation of righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. There is justification by faith apart from the Law. This was a revelation to the Jews who held the Law as paramount.
I believe Paul is completely unambiguous about the doctrine of salvation by faith. He reiterates that theme in chapter 10:
NASB writes:
Romans 10:9-10 - that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
There are no works involved here, only a confession of faith and belief. But Paul does go on to discuss Gentiles who do not have the Law:
NASB writes:
Rom 2:12-16 - For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Paul is speaking of the Jewish Law when he says Law, or more specifically the Jewish religion. But couldn’t this also be relevant to today and mean those without the Gospel, those who do not have the Gospel Law.
Even today, wouldn’t it be true that those who do not have the Law but show the work of the Law written on their hearts, will be declared righteous when they are judged by Jesus? To me, this is one of the strongest verses to indicate the disposition of those that do not have the Law, or more broadly those that have not been exposed to the teachings of Jesus.
This is quite different from having access to the teachings of Jesus and then rejecting them. I believe Faith has acknowledged this in the following quote:
Faith writes:
It's an impression based on the fact that some people do live by a wisdom that is consistent with God's Law, as "written in the heart." If they live such an intuitively wise life in accord with His principles, even if they don't know Christ I expect God to judge them leniently. As I said, I'm not sure what form this would take. It isn't the same thing as salvation according to scripture, simply lesser punishment. There's really not much to go on in scripture about these things, so I'm content to leave it to Him in any case. Whatever He judges it will be perfect justice.
I agree. So those without the Gospel and by extension those who have never heard of Jesus Christ but who instinctively follow His teaching by conviction of conscience, would be judged accordingly. Wouldn’t God’s perfect justice allow them to enter into God’s kingdom? Won’t they be saved by their virtuous heart? This does not replace or exclude salvation by faith, it simply offers another path to God.
So regarding Romans 1-7, I can’t find any reason to conclude that faith in Jesus Christ is the only path to salvation. It is certainly one path, but I don’t find the case for exclusion in Romans. Maybe I’m missing something, but that’s my interpretation.
To me this is as it should be because we cannot develop a formula that Jesus will use when he judges the hearts of people.
Only Jesus will know all of the individual specific situations and secrets of each heart that is judged. But even if it appears to us to be an unfair judgement, Paul has an answer in Romans 9:18; "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Now if we go beyond Romans, there are many references to other paths to salvation besides faith.
The synoptic Gospels, and in particular the sayings directly attributable to Jesus, teach that one path to salvation is achievable by doing good works. They appear to allow for non-Christians to be saved if they follow a lifetime of service to humanity.
In Mat 25:37-46, the separation of the sheep and goats is an example of how living a righteous life will result in salvation. Here Jesus does not mention faith, but clearly offers a path to salvation by helping the poor, visiting people in jail, supporting the ill, giving up ones possessions, etc. In other words, by works. In Mat 25:34, salvation is the just reward: Then the King will say, ‘Come you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. There is no mention of faith here, only works.
The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard to reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). In reality, Paul and James did not disagree at all.
The main disagreement some people claim is over the relationship between faith and works. Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9) while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works.
I believe this apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26).
James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life — then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).
Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their life is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10).
Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come (2 Corinthians 5:17) So in my opinion, James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation.
So in summary and to answer the three questions raised at the beginning of this post:
- Is salvation by faith alone?
Yes, Paul explains it clearly in Romans
- In Romans, is Paul excluding any other means of salvation other than by faith?
No
- If People don’t know Jesus or the Gospels, will they be saved?
Yes, I believe they will be when they are found righteous by Jesus at judgment (Mat 25).
My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. ---Albert Einstein
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