Religion: a survival mechanism?

I'm an amateur when it comes to science and the accompanying jargon; and my knowledge is limited to what I have read. I do find science fascinating though.

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I find the "survival mechanism" view of religion very interesting, if not compelling, as a possible explanation for it as a phenomenon, although I have not made up my mind about which of the various possibilities would be closest to the truth.

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If turning to religion for whatever reason was a survival mechanism, shouldn't groups turn away from religion for the same reason? In a book I read on the history of the Jews, they repeatedly faced abuse and death because of their beliefs and extreme practices. (I'm not at home so I don't have the book in front of me, sorry.) Wouldn't true self preservation dictate rejection of those actions that result in death? I've read that many Jews did convert for those reasons.This part of the article concerning children interested me.

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Psychological tests Boyer has run on children go some way to proving our natural tendency to believe. "If you look at three- to five-year-olds, when they do something naughty, they have an intuition that everyone knows they've been naughty, regardless of whether they have seen or heard what they've done. It's a false belief, but it's good preparation for belief in an entity that is moral and knows everything," he says. "The idea of invisible agents with a moral dimension who are watching you is highly attention-grabbing to us."

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The Christian churches I have been a part of continually stress "being as a child." This article on The Origin of the Domestic Dog has an experiment that makes me think of religion. Here is the excerpt.

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The experiment was started in the 1940's by the Russian geneticist Dmitri Belyaev, who studied the process of domestication using a population of fur farm foxes (see Fig. 1). The foxes used in the beginning stages of the experiment were difficult to handle, very afraid of people and generally behaved like wild animals. The experimenters began to selectively breed the foxes for one trait - tameness around people. At the age of one month, an experimenter would offer food to each fox kit while trying to pet and handle it. This was done twice - while the kit was alone and while it was with other fox kits. This routine was repeated monthly until the kit was seven to eight months old and at that point, each kit was assigned to one of three classes based on how tame it was. Class III foxes attempted to flee from experimenters or tried to bite them. Class II foxes were not friendly to the experimenters, but allowed themselves to be touched. Class I foxes were friendly towards the experimenters and would often approach them. After six generations of breeding only tame foxes, a new class, Class IE, ("domesticated elite") had to be added.

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Given the various places in the Bible where those who do not follow "God's Law" are killed or ostricized, IMO this continued culling could have created a class of people maintained in the childlike state and susceptible to various styles of religion.I wish the researchers had studied beliefs that didn't deal with a God/Father image or overall enlightenment. Some of the Native American beliefs don't really go in that direction. (Again, I don't have the book with me.)Many of the Native Americans did take up the Christian religion for the sake of self preservation. Believe or be culled.

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

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In effect, humans show the ability and affinity to self-govern, but they don't need religion to do it. I think this argument weakens the 'survival' aspect of religion.

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In the course of this thread I'm seeing two types of "survival."I was thinking of physical survival in the real world, but with the mention of fearing death it brings up the possiblity of life after death being the survival mechanism.I don't feel that religion begat morals, rules, etc. The religious haven't really been any more moral than the secular.When people stick with a religion despite persecution, death, etc.; it doesn't sound like self preservation.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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The Jewish people did survive, though.

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Now you're talking about another type of survival. Survival of a genetic group.Who do the genetics start with? Noah, Abraham, Israel, People of the Exodus, After the Exile....Who determines what are pure Jewish genetics?IMO, their religious beliefs actually threatened their genetic survival.

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Even under the most extreme of pressures, they didn't fall apart.

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What do you call falling apart and what makes you believe that they didn't?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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It starts with the first reproductively isolated group.

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Which is when?According to Rabbi James Cohn

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The boundaries of the group define the contents.

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What are the boundaries of this group?

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'Falling apart' = dissolution. This has not happened.

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Dissolution of what?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Hey Brad,Your knowledge is far beyond mine, I'm a very basic person, so please be patient with my simple thoughts.I did some quick searching on Carnap and found a few interesting reads that I think I actually understood.

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'but genetical continuity MIGHT indeed proove to be both the "scientific investigation" and "mathematical geometry"

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In this study concerning Jewish Roots several studies are shown concerning Jewish Genetics and depending on which side you study (X or Y) the answers vary.The studies I read presented the "genetic founders" as the ancestors who immigrated to eastern Europe at the time of the Diaspora (70 AD).In this article by Martin Richrds Beware the Gene Genies he explains that even though the study of genetic diversity is still in it's infancy, that has not stopped people from commercializing the process to tell you your genetic ancestry. Jewish history shows that marrying women from neighboring areas was not uncommon and it shows when testing the maternal side. I guess genetic survival is in the eye of beholder and whose results they use.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

Fascinating!Now you've given me more to think about this weekend.I probably won't continue this line of discussion since I think we might be heading off topic from the survival mechanism. We are probably going deeper than the original topic was aiming.Thank you very much for talking with me.Have an excellent weekend.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

I thought I kinda did in Message 7.Breeding the foxes for tameness.We might be wired to believe as a child, but are we truly wired to believe into adulthood or have we been conditioned?

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That awareness of impending death prompted questions: why are we here? What happens when we die? Answers were needed.

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I don't feel that answering these questions would automatically lead to religion. Stories maybe, but not necessarily religion or a supreme being.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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we necessarily have a brain that is capable of believing things.

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So then my question is what is believing?A child tends to "believe" someone they have learned to trust, someone in authority, and possibly someone they haven't yet learned to mistrust?Even a child will not "believe" or trust a parent who lies or causes them harm.So our simple speaking ancestors are sitting around the fire after dinner discussing death and where we go. This group had witnessed a man dying and watched closely. They noticed that after his last exhale he didn't move anymore. So one man postulates that his breath is now among us. Seemed like a reasonable answer to the rest of them.Is that believing or just accepting what seems reasonable given the evidence in front of them?So are we wired to believe or reason?Or are we wired to reason and conditioned to believe?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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Anything dealing with death is likely to have only come about long after things dealing with nature. Death, being so common, would likely have not garnered even a second thought.

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I tend to agree. I don't think ancient man had a problem with death. Even the OT doesn't touch on a need for eternal life. It appears to have developed after the exile.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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Isn’t one of the consequences of the fall of Man from paradise, that he has lost his immortality?

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The story of the fall of man that we possess in the Bible today is believed to be written down during the time of the two kingdoms. The J & E stories. The stories were then merged together sometime after the distruction of Israel.If we remember that oral stories change as the culture changes, then we realize that the author has written the story with his culture in mind. If you look at some of the Jewish legends written down by others, you see various renditions of the story. This excerpt also shows where the NT got the notion that one of the Lord's days equals a thousand years. In another version Adam gave up 70 of his years for his descendants.Today we assume that man lost immortality, but did he really? Our story is rather crytic, it can be argued both ways, which I think someone is in another thread. IMO, it doesn't imply immortality.

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The people who handed down this parable must have had thoughts about the end of their lives, or they wouldn’t have come up with this idea.

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Were they contemplating the end of their lives or explaining their life span? We know that all living things don't have the same life span. Maybe they were simply explaining why ours is the length it is. Hard to say what their actual thoughts were behind the story.This is the problem that arises when stories are not updated so that the integrity of the moral is retained as the culture changes. The Bible is stuck in time.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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Are you suggesting that the death was a spiritual one only?

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Not at all.

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That even before the Fall, humans would quite naturally die a physical death?

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The Jewish legends suggest that Adam had an alloted time. I'm suggesting that this aspect of the story may be explaining why humans live as long as they do, as opposed to, what happens after death or the loss of immortality.

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

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A certain preoccupation with death is what lies behind it all, I think. It comes with the territory.

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Personally, I see a difference. Understanding that death is a part of life and that all things die, IMO, doesn't necessarily breed a preoccupation with or fear of death.Christians, OTOH, have a preoccupation with eternal life. They feel that death is something to be saved from instead of a logical end to life.From what I've read of ancient religions, they were very life based in the beginning. Thanking gods or spirits for a good hunt, good harvest, rain, etc.I don't see religion as a survival mechanism. I view it as something that evolved out of rituals?

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"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France