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Author | Topic: Religion: a survival mechanism? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3780 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
I'm an amateur when it comes to science and the accompanying jargon; and my knowledge is limited to what I have read. I do find science fascinating though.
quote:If turning to religion for whatever reason was a survival mechanism, shouldn't groups turn away from religion for the same reason? In a book I read on the history of the Jews, they repeatedly faced abuse and death because of their beliefs and extreme practices. (I'm not at home so I don't have the book in front of me, sorry.) Wouldn't true self preservation dictate rejection of those actions that result in death? I've read that many Jews did convert for those reasons. This part of the article concerning children interested me.
quote: The Christian churches I have been a part of continually stress "being as a child."
Lu 18:17 "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all." Php 2:22 But you know of his proven worth, that he served with me in the furtherance of the gospel like a child serving his father. This article on The Origin of the Domestic Dog has an experiment that makes me think of religion. Here is the excerpt.
quote:Given the various places in the Bible where those who do not follow "God's Law" are killed or ostricized, IMO this continued culling could have created a class of people maintained in the childlike state and susceptible to various styles of religion. I wish the researchers had studied beliefs that didn't deal with a God/Father image or overall enlightenment. Some of the Native American beliefs don't really go in that direction. (Again, I don't have the book with me.) Many of the Native Americans did take up the Christian religion for the sake of self preservation. Believe or be culled. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3780 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:In the course of this thread I'm seeing two types of "survival." I was thinking of physical survival in the real world, but with the mention of fearing death it brings up the possiblity of life after death being the survival mechanism. I don't feel that religion begat morals, rules, etc. The religious haven't really been any more moral than the secular. When people stick with a religion despite persecution, death, etc.; it doesn't sound like self preservation. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3780 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Now you're talking about another type of survival. Survival of a genetic group. Who do the genetics start with? Noah, Abraham, Israel, People of the Exodus, After the Exile.... Who determines what are pure Jewish genetics? IMO, their religious beliefs actually threatened their genetic survival.
quote:What do you call falling apart and what makes you believe that they didn't? "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3780 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Which is when? According to Rabbi James Cohn The Jewish search for unity is a very, very old one. Our ancient religious community was originally formed as a loose confederation of different groups of Semites, only gradually melding into a people and a culture. quote:What are the boundaries of this group? quote:Dissolution of what? "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3780 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Hey Brad,
Your knowledge is far beyond mine, I'm a very basic person, so please be patient with my simple thoughts. I did some quick searching on Carnap and found a few interesting reads that I think I actually understood.
quote:In this study concerning Jewish Roots several studies are shown concerning Jewish Genetics and depending on which side you study (X or Y) the answers vary. The studies I read presented the "genetic founders" as the ancestors who immigrated to eastern Europe at the time of the Diaspora (70 AD). In this article by Martin Richrds Beware the Gene Genies he explains that even though the study of genetic diversity is still in it's infancy, that has not stopped people from commercializing the process to tell you your genetic ancestry.
Buoyed by the hype, the private sector has been moving in. Other groups, such as Jews, are now being targeted. This despite the fact that Jewish communities have little in common on their mitochondrial side - the maternal line down which Judaism is traditionally inherited. It's the male side that shows common ancestry between different Jewish communities - so, of course, that's what the geneticists focus on. Jewish history shows that marrying women from neighboring areas was not uncommon and it shows when testing the maternal side.
By tracking the history of genes back through time, geneticists can try to reconstruct the migrations and expansions of the human species. They have no special insight into ethnicity and identity. I guess genetic survival is in the eye of beholder and whose results they use. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3780 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Fascinating!
Now you've given me more to think about this weekend. I probably won't continue this line of discussion since I think we might be heading off topic from the survival mechanism. We are probably going deeper than the original topic was aiming. Thank you very much for talking with me. Have an excellent weekend. ![]() "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3780 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
I thought I kinda did in Message 7.
Breeding the foxes for tameness. We might be wired to believe as a child, but are we truly wired to believe into adulthood or have we been conditioned?
quote:I don't feel that answering these questions would automatically lead to religion. Stories maybe, but not necessarily religion or a supreme being. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3780 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:So then my question is what is believing? A child tends to "believe" someone they have learned to trust, someone in authority, and possibly someone they haven't yet learned to mistrust? Even a child will not "believe" or trust a parent who lies or causes them harm. So our simple speaking ancestors are sitting around the fire after dinner discussing death and where we go. This group had witnessed a man dying and watched closely. They noticed that after his last exhale he didn't move anymore. So one man postulates that his breath is now among us. Seemed like a reasonable answer to the rest of them. Is that believing or just accepting what seems reasonable given the evidence in front of them? So are we wired to believe or reason? Or are we wired to reason and conditioned to believe? "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3780 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I tend to agree. I don't think ancient man had a problem with death. Even the OT doesn't touch on a need for eternal life. It appears to have developed after the exile. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3780 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:The story of the fall of man that we possess in the Bible today is believed to be written down during the time of the two kingdoms. The J & E stories. The stories were then merged together sometime after the distruction of Israel. If we remember that oral stories change as the culture changes, then we realize that the author has written the story with his culture in mind. If you look at some of the Jewish legends written down by others, you see various renditions of the story. This excerpt also shows where the NT got the notion that one of the Lord's days equals a thousand years.
Of his own free will Adam relinquished seventy of his allotted years. His appointed span was to be a thousand years, one of the Lord's days. But he saw that only a single minute of life was apportioned to the great soul of David, and he made a gift of seventy years to her, reducing his own years to nine hundred and thirty.' In another version Adam gave up 70 of his years for his descendants. Today we assume that man lost immortality, but did he really? Our story is rather crytic, it can be argued both ways, which I think someone is in another thread. IMO, it doesn't imply immortality.
quote:Were they contemplating the end of their lives or explaining their life span? We know that all living things don't have the same life span. Maybe they were simply explaining why ours is the length it is. Hard to say what their actual thoughts were behind the story. This is the problem that arises when stories are not updated so that the integrity of the moral is retained as the culture changes. The Bible is stuck in time. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3780 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Not at all. quote:The Jewish legends suggest that Adam had an alloted time. I'm suggesting that this aspect of the story may be explaining why humans live as long as they do, as opposed to, what happens after death or the loss of immortality. "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3780 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Personally, I see a difference. Understanding that death is a part of life and that all things die, IMO, doesn't necessarily breed a preoccupation with or fear of death. Christians, OTOH, have a preoccupation with eternal life. They feel that death is something to be saved from instead of a logical end to life. From what I've read of ancient religions, they were very life based in the beginning. Thanking gods or spirits for a good hunt, good harvest, rain, etc. I don't see religion as a survival mechanism. I view it as something that evolved out of rituals? "The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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