Missouri Anti-Evolution Bill

jazzlover_PR writes:

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...we don't want evolution to be taken out of the classroom but instead just add the other side or sides of the story and have them all be taught neutrally by the teacher or instructor.

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Depends on what you mean by "neutrally". I think Ned has made the point before, and I tend to agree, that schools should teach things like ID and creationism alongside ToE provided that students are informed of the fact that overwhelming scientific evidence exists to support ToE while virtually no scientific evidence supports ID or creationism. So long as the kids aren't lied to and told that such nonsense is supported by any evidence I would have no objection to dealing with such "theories" in the classrooms.Any other approach to ID and creationism in a science classroom would constitute lying to the students. We atheists are opposed to lying to school kids in science classrooms. Even when it's for Jesus.

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Rrhain writes:

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Because we don't have time to go through every single wrong example. Science history is a wonderful thing, but the main point of a science classroom is to teach you actual science as we understand it to work right here and now.

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No, we don't have time to go through every single wrong example, but I should think that some time could be set aside in science class to help kids learn to debunk shady science notions themselves. Prevailing contemporary "theories" like ID could be used as examples.

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Rrhain asks me:

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We don't do this with any other field of science. Why are we picking on evolution?

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Because kids aren't as likely to encounter wacky ideas about other fields of science outside the classroom. What's more, they aren't as likely to encounter wacky ideas that are taken seriously by large numbers of people.

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Sorry, Rrhain, I missed this comment from you:

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The only neutral approach to creationists is to put them through the same ringer of peer review that we demand of everyone else.

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That's more or less what I'm saying. Let's do it as a group, in the classroom.

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Rrhain writes me:

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That's the point of a logic class. You should already have these skills before you make it to a full-fledged, bunsen burners and test tubes, air rail and wave machine laboratory class.

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Absolutely, but that's an ideal. My high school didn't have logic classes. The closest thing I had to any kind of instruction in critical thinking during high school would have probably been senior lit, where my teacher was well versed in textual criticism and taught us quite a bit about it during our segment on 'Hamlet'. I don't remember learning anything that would have prepared me for the kind of lunatic "science" theories we discuss here at evc.

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But then you'd have to eventually say that somebody's vision of god is wrong and you'd never get past the lawsuit.

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I see your point and must admit that I hadn't thought of it. But what is a right-minded science teacher to do if he or she is required by law to teach ID as a competing theory to evolution? Is there anything in these laws to prevent him or her from teaching the "theory", then teaching how to shoot it down (doing so in the process)?

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Rrhain writes me:

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It's a common enough opinion that the oil companies have suppressed automobile engines that get 100 miles to the gallon in order to maintain their oil profits.

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True, but that's a conspiracy theory that doesn't seriously threaten the teaching of science. You seem to be of the opinion that creationism and ID aren't serious threats either. I hope you're right.You're making an excellent case for having logic classes at the high school level, btw, something I certainly wouldn't oppose.

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And he's not a stupid person, but how do you get past that?

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I don't know, but that's what we've got to deal with. One way or another, we've got to teach kids to think critically. Obviously, we haven't been doing a very good job of it, which would suggest that something needs to change.

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Rrhain asks me:

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Would you rather a teacher tell a student directly that his religious view of the world is wrong?

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No, I wouldn't. I was thinking merely of shooting down the ID theory in science class. I conceded this point to you earlier. However, I think it is somewhat idealistic to expect every science teacher to ignore the law, however wrong that law might be. I'd love to be wrong about this, but I doubt there are many Scopes around these days who would be willing to go to jail standing up for what's right. I think the vast majority of teachers are probably going to obey these laws.

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Instead, we simply teach them the facts as we understand them and that means evolution.

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I'm with you, so long as we can have those logic classes to teach critical thinking. I really think that's got to be done somewhere.

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Rrhain writes:

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Not at all. There are plenty who would. In the many discussions in school boards regarding this, teacher after teacher has stood up to say that they could not, in good conscience, teach creationism in any form as actual science and would have to disobey the law.

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If that's true I'm delighted to stand corrected.

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Rrhain writes me:

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The physics of efficiency don't have anything to say as to whether or not such an idea is even rational to begin with let alone ridiculous from a "conspiracy" point of view?

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Yes, of course it would. But as you say, people believe it. They believe there is a conspiracy among automakers to supress this technology. The idea stands quite apart from whether or not such a technology would win a Nobel prize, which, again, of course it would.I remember first hearing of this conspiracy theory when I was about 12, during the Arab oil embargo of the early 70s. I can still remember having a conversation with my mother about it. Oddly enough (or maybe not), she's a mathematician like you and I seem to get caught up in the same sorts of arguments with her that I do with you.

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But does the fact that we have failed our students miserably mean we have to compound the problem by giving credence to things that have no reason to even be considered?

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Ideally, no. But the system we have today doesn't seem to be ideal. I'm not saying that the idea of shooting down ID in science classrooms is the best solution, but it's better than teaching ID without any challenge. Of course it's best if we teach critical thinking, but Sesame Street notwithstanding I'm not convinced that we're doing a very good job of that.

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