|
Understanding through Discussion |
|
|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
| Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
| Author | Topic: How Can Trinity Believers Explain This | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
wmscott Member (Idle past 6279 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Phatboy;
I see you can search and cut and paste, but do you even understand what this little storm in a tea kettle you posted is all about? First you are off topic, your post has very little to do with the Trinity. Second it is attacking a change in the way the Watchtower (published by Jehovah's Witnesses) applied John 2:19. It seems that they had a wrong understanding of this verse in 1952 and had corrected that viewpoint by 1969. Ancient history, between 52 years ago and 33 years ago, they changed their view that the body Jesus spoke of at John 2:19 was not the spiritual body of the congregation, but Christ's physical body. What was interesting is your source quoted from all these articles in the Watchtower, but did not quote or try to refute the scriptures used to support the position that Jesus did not raise himself. Why did he skip the scriptures? After all, it is the scriptures that matter, everything else is just so much hot air. Let's take a look. (Romans 8:11) . . .If, now, the spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in YOU, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead . . . (Acts 2:24) But God resurrected him (Acts 10:40) . . .God raised this One up on the third day . . . (1 Corinthians 6:14) But God both raised up the Lord and will raise us up out of [death] through his power. (1 Corinthians 15:15) . . .God that he raised up the Christ, . . . (Ephesians 1:17-20) . . .that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, . . . It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, with which he has operated in the case of the Christ when he raised him up from the dead . . . (Hebrews 13:20-21) . . .Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an everlasting covenant, our Lord Jesus, . . . Now you see why your source didn't quote the scriptures, the Bible clearly teaches that Jehovah God was the one who raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Jesus did not personally resurrect himself. All that stuff about quoting from articles with different views, was a smoke and mirrors trick to distract you from the fact that Jehovah's Witnesses are biblically correct on their teaching that Jesus didn't resurrect himself. As for their claim that Jesus stating he was going to resurrect himself, at John 2:19 look at the actual wording. John 2:19-22 ""Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." . . . When, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples called to mind that he used to say this; and they believed the Scripture and the saying that Jesus said." Look at the last part, "When, though he was raised up from the dead" he was raised, an action done by someone else, not an action by Jesus himself. So even the writer of John 2:19 didn't believe that Jesus raised himself, (John also wrote Acts, see the verses above) in fact he believed in the many prophecies that stated that Jehovah would resurrect the Messiah. There no prophecies predicting the messiah would raise himself. The Trinitarians are misunderstanding Jesus' words, when he said "I will raise it up," he was referring to what his Father would do for him. Many times in the Bible Jehovah is credited with having done something, but the actual action was preformed by one of God's servants acting in his name. In the same way, Jehovah and Jesus work in close unity for a common purpose and Jesus was referring to this common purpose in work when He said 'I' when the actual resurrection would be done for him by his Father in his behalf. Sincerely yours; Wm Scott Anderson
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
wmscott Member (Idle past 6279 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Phatboy;
quote:The belief that Jesus has a beginning and was created by Jehovah is based on scripture. We are told that he is the firstborn of creation, that he was created first. Colossians 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;" This thought is repeated at Revelation 3:14. Revelation 3:14 "the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God," And is explained in more detail at Proverbs 8:22-23 "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth." Consider the most famous and one of the most important verses in the Bible. John 3:16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son,"Notice the term "only-begotten Son", to be begotten as a son, you have to be born or be created. If you always existed you can't be any body's son or be begotten. The very term 'son' requires that Jesus had a beginning when he was "fathered" or created, otherwise he could not be God's son. The relationship requires that Jesus was created by God, which is why they are Father and son. quote:Only the Bible is inspired. There are also many scholars who agree with non trinitarianism, so in the end you have to examine the scriptures and decide for yourself. That is why Jehovah's Witnesses offer free home Bible studies to everyone, so that everyone can learn what the Bible said and make their own informed decision. quote:The lack of "a scholastic logic that explains the scriptures" can be corrected by studying the Bible and finding the answers to your questions for yourself. But it most unwise to trust in a 'feeling' instead of doing the biblical research and finding the answers, it would be like navigating a plane in the dark by a 'feeling', just as that would be sure to end in disaster so will blindly trusting a 'feeling' in deciding religious truth. If a doctrine is truly supported by scripture, it will be logical and well supported by what the Bible says on the matter, in contrast with things that are not which are said to be 'mysteries' or 'beyond our human comprehension'. Logic and supporting evidence is what differentiates fact from fiction. As for sources being only accepted with Jehovah's Witnesses, they base everything on the Bible which still finds wide acceptance among Christians the world over. As for having a monopoly on truth. What did Jesus have? And what did his followers have? Jesus prayed that his followers would be one in unity or one group, so it is to be expected that there would be a monopoly on truth. For if there somehow happened to be two groups who did both have the truth, wouldn't their common cause and respect for Jesus' wishes for unity, cause them to become one? You are wise not to debate with your Witness friends, but what you should do is study with them and learn what they know, then you will know what both sides of the debate knows and will be in a better position to make a discission on the matter. Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
wmscott Member (Idle past 6279 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Legend;
Before I start, I would like to say that the quality of your posts is excellent. Generally I find that Trinitarians just mindlessly repeat what they have been told, but your posts show original thinking, which is something most Trinitarians don't do. In replying I will attempt to encourage you to think outside of the Trinitarian box. The hardest puzzles to solve are the ones when our starting premiss is wrong, it is only when we discover that, that we can see the solution.
quote:(Genesis 1:26 "And God went on to say: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness," The Bible tells us that we are like God, so there are similarities in the way our minds work to his. He is far greater of course, but because we are made in his image, his way of thinking is not alien to us or totally incomprehensible to us. While we can not grasp the full extent of Jehovah, we can relate to him or come to know him. You are correct on separate beings, that love is why the son loyally serves his Father. That is why the Devil tested Jesus' loyalty, he thought that he could break the bond of love between the Father and the son. The Devil testing the loyalty of part of a Trinity to itself, would be stupid and pointless since there wouldn't be anything to even test, the Devil is wicked but he certainly isn't stupid. Jesus set an example for us in submission and obedience to his Father, but it would only be an example if he was an independent being. If he had no freewill or choice, he wouldn't have set an example at all, since then it wouldn't have been a matter of faithful devotion, merely a preprogramed routine. But when you read the gospels and read Jesus' words as he speaks to his Father;(Matthew 26:38-39 "Then he said to them: "My soul is deeply grieved, even to death. Stay here and keep on the watch with me." And going a little way forward, he fell upon his face, praying and saying: "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will."" Look at the heavy emotional context, the deep feeling, these are words spoken by a son to his father. They are not words spoken by someone talking to himself, they are not spoken by someone who has no will of his own. There are the earnest words of a beloved son talking with his dear father. The son is asking his father remove part of the testing he is to under go, but he states that he is willing to face it. If Jesus had no will of his own, if he wasn't an independent being, this conversation would never have taken place. This exchange could have only occurred between two independent beings, the request, the feelings and the statement of loyalty, would be meaning less and could not have happened between two parts of a Trinity. Just look at the verse, two wills are mentioned, God's will and Jesus' will, since they each have their own will, they are two independent beings. Otherwise what is Jesus' 'will' in the above verse?
quote:Considering the fact that Jesus as First born of creation was used to create everything, he always had great power, but he did not as you said, have the authority. But then we both agree that there was a time when he didn't have the authority. quote:Beautiful illustration, I like it and I think it has more truth to it then what you may realize. You and John are two independent beings who work together in unity based on mutual respect ( I could even say 'love' in the loyal sense ), that is how Jehovah and Jesus work together. They are no more part of a Trinity than you and John are. But the key part here is, is the relationship between Jehovah and Jesus one of equals like you and John? or does one have authority over the other? In your illustration you and John are equals, but what if one of you was the boss? What the scriptures say as to the balance of authority between the Father and the son. First off, it is a Father and son relationship. Image that your coworker John was your Father, that would tend to change the balance of authority, especially if the two of you had your own business. Now the balance of authority between fathers and sons can vary, so let us see what the Bible states. 1 Corinthians 11:3 "But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God." Here it is stated that God has Headship over Christ just like a husband has over his wife. John 5:19 "Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: "Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing."John 5:30 "I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me." Image yourself saying the above words when describing your working relationship to your coworker John, it certainly wouldn't sound at all like you were describing an equal. Anyone hearing you say the above is probably going to be looking at you thinking the word "slave" because you would be saying that John had total absolute authority over you and you accepted this and obey him as perfectly as you can. Now the above statement of total submission to you coworker may stun some of your listeners, and perhaps someone will try to look for loopholes, like you didn't mean it to sound that way. But then later you make the following statement about going back to the office to see John. John 20:17 "Jesus said to her: "Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.'" Now remember Jesus spoke the above words after he had been raised from the dead, he was at this point no longer just a human man and he in his resurrected form in which he was soon to go to heaven in, stated that the Father was his God. Now if you said that your coworker John was your God, aside from thinking you were nuts, I would think that you worshipped him and he had total authority over you. That if 'John' snapped his fingers you were right there with a "Yes John, what is your will?". If we saw you repeatedly praying to "John" that would also reenforce that impression, since prayer is a form of worship. If we saw you go off by yourself to pray to 'John' we would also know that you were not just trying to set an example for us. As you can see using your illustration for the relationship between Jehovah and Jesus becomes strange, because will you and John are equals, Jehovah and Jesus are not.
quote:The power Jesus had to do miracles was the power of Jehovah's holy spirit Jesus was anointed with at his baptism in the Jordan river. Acts 10:37-38 "after the baptism that John preached, namely, Jesus who was from Nazareth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil; because God was with him."Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man publicly shown by God to YOU through powerful works and portents and signs that God did through him in YOUR midst," Hebrews 2:4 "while God joined in bearing witness with signs as well as portents and various powerful works and with distributions of holy spirit according to his will?" Jesus while he was on earth was just a human man, he had no supernatural power of his own, he could do what he did only because Jehovah's holy spirit was with him to do the works. Luke 5:17 'In the course of one of the days he was teaching, . . . and Jehovah's power was there for him to do healing. 'Luke 6:19 "And all the crowd were seeking to touch him, because power was going out of him and healing them all." It was the power of the holy spirit with which Jesus had been given at his baptism that did the healings, it was not Jesus' own power, it was from Jehovah. That is why Acts 2:22 and Hebrews 2:4 give credit to Jehovah for the miracles Jesus did, for as Acts states, God did the portents through Jesus, Jesus didn't do them on his own.
quote:The explanation is very simple, Jehovah is God and does all the judging, then he installs Jesus Christ as King and Judge to carry out God's will and judgements. Jehovah can be said to judge in that he has appointed Christ to do the judging, yet God doesn't directly judge since Christ is the one who actually does the judging. God gets the credit, yet it is Jesus who actually does the work. Many things God has done were done through angels or even men. This post is getting far too long and I am short of time, so I will post what I have so. Sincerely yours; Wm Scott Anderson
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
wmscott Member (Idle past 6279 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Legend;
quote:The reason for the apparent ambiguity is that the Bible is written in sort of a 'code' (not a literal code) and most people don't understand the 'code,' but once you do, the ambiguity disappears. Jesus referred to this at; Matthew 11:25-26 "I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes. Yes, O Father, because to do thus came to be the way approved by you." Jesus stated that the hidden knowledge was revealed, once you understand it, you understand the Word of God with a much greater clarity than those who do not and the fuzziness disappears. Paul explained this at greater length. 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 "Now we speak wisdom among those who are mature, but not the wisdom of this system of things nor that of the rulers of this system of things, who are to come to nothing. But we speak God's wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, which God foreordained before the systems of things for our glory. This [wisdom] not one of the rulers of this system of things came to know, for if they had known [it] they would not have impaled the glorious Lord. But just as it is written: "Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, neither have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him." For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of man that is in him? So, too, no one has come to know the things of God, except the spirit of God. Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God, that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by [the] spirit, as we combine spiritual [matters] with spiritual [words]. But a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know [them], because they are examined spiritually. However, the spiritual man examines indeed all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. For "who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, that he may instruct him?" But we do have the mind of Christ." Once you have this deeper understanding, you can see that "Scripture is inspired of God . . . for setting things straight" (2 Timothy 3:16) and that the Bible clearly teaches one truth without any ambiguity. Using the scriptures you can clearly show what the Bible teaches and what it doesn't.
quote:The Trinity doctrine is so extremely complicated and has so many ad hoc special rules for the many conflicting verses, it certainly doesn't simplify Bible comprehension, it complicates it beyond all measure. I of course don't believe in it and have no Bible 'difficulties' as a result. The non Trinitarian Bible view is much simpler and logical. I have never had any one come up with a verse that required a Trinity to explain it, and I know of hundreds of verses that create big problems for the Trinity requiring all sorts of complicated explanations that in the end don't make any sense. Even simple definitions of Trinitarian terms results in incomprehensible answers if they can even be called answers. While the non- Trinitarian has none of these problems and simply reads the Bible and understands a few basic concepts like oneness and unity and such. Jesus disciples were described as "men unlettered and ordinary" (Acts 4:13) what do you think they believed? Bible scholars can't truly explain the Trinity in an understandable way, yet common fishermen are to have taught it? Sounds fishy to me. quote:Because Jehovah is Almighty, no one is equal to him. Jesus Christ is like God, but he is not equal to God. Jesus was very clear that his heavenly Father was his God, while Jesus is called a mighty god, there is no scripture which states he is Almighty God. Jesus Christ is the archangel, and angels are referred to as gods. (Psalm 82:1) "God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; In the middle of the gods he judges:" (Psalm 8:5) "You also proceeded to make him a little less than godlike ones," Both scriptures use the Hebrew word "elohim" which means "gods" and when Paul quotes Psalms 8:5 "You made him a little lower than angels;" he uses the word 'angels' since that is who the 'gods' are in Psalms. Paul also stated that Jesus was an angel of God. (Galatians 4:14) "YOU received me like an angel of God, like Christ Jesus." So Jesus is an angle and a god or godlike. His being call an angel makes it impossible for him to be part of a Trinity since it is impossible for Jehovah to be part angel. So the statement that there are no other Gods, refers to the fact that no one can successfully claim to be the Almighty creator like Jehovah. Jehovah is unique, he is all powerfully and not one can compare to him, there are no other Gods in the supreme sense. quote:I knew what you were trying to illustrate, I was showing you the full implications of your illustration, it was better than you intended. I was showing you that if I put what Jesus said into your mouth, everyone would know that you were not equal to your co-worker. Now when you hear the same words spoken by Jesus they don't mean the same thing to you because you are hearing them through the Trinity doctrine. Outside of the Trinity you understand the words one way, but inside of its influence, you hear them another way. I wanted to show you this because I wanted you to see that your thinking is still being controlled by the Trinity doctrine, you are unknowingly still inside the Trinity box, you can't see outside of it. Your thinking is controlled, trapped by an old mind-set. It is like when you and to go to the store, but you find yourself driving to work by habit. Now with the Trinity it is as if I am riding in the car with you to go to the store and I notice that you are driving to your place of work instead of the store. I point this out and you answer that that is how to get to the store. I point out that the store is in the opposite direction from your work place, but in reply you pull out a recruitment brochure you got when you were hired showing how close everything in town is to the company plant. I get out a map and measure the routes showing the difference in distance, in reply you launch into a long explanation on how the importance of your company has distorted the local space around it into a none linear form. Puzzled, I press on and point to the travel times on the map showing that your route still takes more time. In answer you explain about how the flow of time in the area has been changed by sun spots and a secret alien underground factory under part of town that has changed the way times flows in different parts of town. So I decide to drive the different routes with stopwatch in hand, but when I present the results, I am told that my results are wrong because of the direction of the magnetic field, the effects of an advanced mining process being used in the next town and so on. The moral of the story is that you can only teach people as much as they are willing to learn. Please don't be offended by my silly story, I just wanted you for a moment to see how the Trinity doctrine looks to those of us who don't believe in it. Sometimes talking to a Trinitarian is like watching someone on the street stepping over invisible obstacles and walking around things that are not there, while you see other people walk down the same sidewalk without any problems. Why do all those complicated mental gymnastics for a doctrine that is even explained or taught in scripture? Isn't it obvious that the Trinity is a mind-set, like a person with good vision wearing extremely thick glasses and trying to read with them on, it only obscures the view and makes understanding God harder.
quote:Under this logic Jesus would have 'denied his human nature' each time he performed a miracle. Was each miracle a sin? I think you are missing the point here anyway, the issue between Jehovah and the Devil was never one of power. The Devil has never questioned God's power to rule, what he has questioned is God's right to rule. The Devil has stated that no man will remain faithful to God if tested, Jesus demonstrated that is untrue. Jesus to this day hasn't destroyed the Devil because it isn't Jehovah's time for that to occur, certain issues need to be resolved first once and for all time. Jesus' demonstration of loyal faithfulness as a human man, would not have answered the Devil's charge or served as a reasonable example for us to follow, if he was part God at the time. A spirit being using a human body like a puppet, is not the same thing as just being human, Jesus had to be just a man. So when Jesus quoted scripture, he meant it, his answer to Satan was that he would only worship Jehovah. quote:Paul stated at Romans 2:16 "This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare." Paul repeats the same thought at Acts 17:31 "Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead." That is how Jehovah judges after Jesus Christ is installed as messianic king, before Jesus received the Kingdom, his Father Jehovah did the judging. When Jesus was raised to a superior position then what he had before, he was given new authority and power, one of the responsibilities he was then intrusted with was the judging. Jesus in making his statement (John 5:22) "the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son," was talking about the authority he would have as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, which he received when he was raised to a superior position after his return to heaven. He wasn't talking about the past, he was talking about his role in the future. Sincerely yours; Wm Scott Anderson
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
wmscott Member (Idle past 6279 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Legend;
quote:You mean that he only helped others, that if he missed the boat, he would never use miraculous power to walk on water? Matthew 14:23-25 "Eventually, having sent the crowds away, he went up into the mountain by himself to pray. Though it became late, he was there alone. By now the boat was many hundreds of yards away from land, being hard put to it by the waves, because the wind was against them. But in the fourth watch period of the night he came to them, walking over the sea." Granted, maybe Jesus planned this all out so his disciples would see him walking on the water to build their faith. But consider all the miracles they had witnessed, and Jesus had a transportation problem, his having to get over the water seems to have been at least part of the reason for the miracle. What you are saying doesn't make any sense, look at; Luke 22:41-43 "And he himself drew away from them about a stone's throw, and bent his knees and began to pray, saying: "Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place." Then an angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him." If Jesus was part God, why did he need strengthening from an angel? Why did he pray that God's will be done rather than his own? Was all of this just acting for our benefit? If it was meant as an act, why did he go off by himself? Only if Jesus was just a human man does this make sense, if he was a god-man it was some sort of very complicated deception that makes no sense. Even in Matthew when tested by the devil, at Matthew 4:11 "Then the Devil left him, and, look! angels came and began to minister to him." he is helped by angels. If he was merely acting in the preceding verses when being tested by the Devil by limiting himself to human replies, why did he need angelic help? A God-man would not have been tired by testing that was a mere act, only a man wound have been tired by the experience.
quote:Mark 4:11-12 "he proceeded to say to them: "To YOU the sacred secret of the kingdom of God has been given, but to those outside all things occur in illustrations, in order that, though looking, they may look and yet not see, and, though hearing, they may hear and yet not get the sense of it, nor ever turn back and forgiveness be given them." The 'Sacred Secret' was about how Jesus came to die for our sins and gain us life, but this knowledge was hidden in the scriptures and was progressively revealed over time. As you can see by Jesus' words that the understanding about this secret was not given to all. Those to whom it is not revealed are those who do not have a proper heart condition towards the Kingdom and Jehovah's sovereignty, for those who turn their back on God, the Sacred Secret is still sealed. Paul explained this at; 1 Corinthians 2:14-15 "But a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know [them], because they are examined spiritually. However, the spiritual man examines indeed all things," To those who persist in pursuing fleshly things of the world rather than spiritual things, the Bible is a sealed book, they don't understand it. You could literally take these people and strap them down and force them to listen, but it would be a wasted effort, they wouldn't grasp the real meaning of what you were telling them. Most have no interest in serving God, and even of those who would like to gain the prize of the hope, we are warned. Luke 13:23-24 ""Lord, are those who are being saved few?" He said to them: "Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able," Certainly not a once saved always saved thing as so many religions teach. So even if you have the spirit so to speak, how do you "verify that this knowledge you have is true"? Simple, Acts 17:11-12 "Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so. Therefore many of them became believers, " You verify for yourself that what is being taught is what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches only one truth, so only one key will fit the lock.
quote:Shoehorning is exactly what most do, like the Trinity, not mentioned, named, explained or even taught in scripture, yet look at our debate. Shoehorning is obvious by the longer explanations it requires for what should be simple questions. You have to be open to what the Bible teaches, you have to be willing to be taught by God, on his terms not yours. If you are willing to be taught, free Bible studies are available, and people are taught how to recognize the difference between religious truth and lies, by using the Bible. The Bible is not ambiguous or inconsistent, it is very consistent and has a very sharp edge. Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart". If you can't see the sharp definition that is the Bible, perhaps it is because your spiritual vision has been blinded by man made doctrines like the Trinity. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 "If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers,"
quote:Isaiah is using the term 'god' in the almighty creator of the universe sense, (Isaiah 45:18 "For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: "I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.") while in Genesis the 'us' refers to Jehovah, Jesus and other angels. Paul addressed this issue. 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 "For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him." Notice that Paul stated that there were many gods, but there is only one God in the sense of the Almighty creator, which was the same sense used in Isaiah. Also notice that all things are through Jesus, referring to Jesus' role in helping Jehovah create all things. quote:Jehovah God can not literally be seen by human eyes as John 1:18, Exodus 33:20 state. No one has ever seen Jehovah, what they did see were his angelic messengers acting in his name. Paul stated that Moses did not speak directly with Jehovah, but spoke with his angels. Acts 7:37-38 "This is the Moses that said to the sons of Israel, 'God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me.' This is he that came to be among the congregation in the wilderness with the angel that spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our forefathers, and he received living sacred pronouncements to give YOU." The other times in the OT where "Jehovah" comes and talks with men, it was an angel acting for God. Hebrews 13:1-2 "Let YOUR brotherly love continue. Do not forget hospitality, for through it some, unknown to themselves, entertained angels." quote:God doesn't change his personality, he is always the same. Isaiah 46:4 "Even to [one's] old age I am the same One; and to [one's] gray-headedness I myself shall keep bearing up. I myself shall certainly act, that I myself may carry and that I myself may bear up and furnish escape." That is how Jehovah is unchanging, we can always count on him. But there are ways that Jehovah does change, he changes his judgement if someone repents. Joel 2:12-13 "And now also," the utterance of Jehovah is, "come back to me with all YOUR hearts, and with fasting and with weeping and with wailing. And rip apart YOUR hearts, and not YOUR garments; and come back to Jehovah YOUR God, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness, and he will certainly feel regret on account of the calamity."Jeremiah 18:8-10 "and that nation actually turns back from its badness against which I spoke, I will also feel regret over the calamity that I had thought to execute upon it. But at any moment that I may speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom to build [it] up and to plant [it], and it actually does what is bad in my eyes by not obeying my voice, I will also feel regret over the good that I said [to myself] to do for its good.'" So when God decides to exercise mercy, he 'feels regret' over the judgment he would have otherwise carried out. A point to remember is that Jehovah is perfect and never makes a mistake, so he never has that kind of regret. Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man that he should tell lies, Neither a son of mankind that he should feel regret." God only feels regret in the sense of changing his course of action, such as in response to some one repenting or he decides not to execute sentence because of other factors. His regret is merely a way of saying he decided not to do something, such as when a person or group is guilty, but he decides not to execute them. He 'regrets' the punishment and doesn't carry it out. So for God, a regret is not a change, he doesn't change, he is merely withholding a punishment.
quote:The old faith vs works controversy, there isn't a controversy in the Bible. "Works of the Law" referring to the Mosaic law which Christ ended, have no value in God's eyes. The works that save are works of faith, which are faith in action. A faith that is inactive or produces no works, is dead. James 2:26 "Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." We are saved by having a faith that moves us to live in harmony with God's will, our salvation is a gift since our works of faith do not earn it. quote:All sins can be forgiven, but one. All the mistakes we make do in sinning, can be forgiven, the one sin that is not forgiven is a deliberate act, not a mere mistake. The unforgivable sin is not an error, being a willful rebellion against God it is not covered by Jesus sacrifice. Mark 3:28-29 "Truly I say to YOU that all things will be forgiven the sons of men, no matter what sins and blasphemies they blasphemously commit. However, whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is guilty of everlasting sin." Those who fight against the holy spirit, knowingly oppose God's will, willful rebellion and sinning is not forgiven. Hebrews 10:26 "For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left," 1 John 1:9 and Acts 13:39, are referring to inherited human imperfections or the sin of Adam. Blaspheming the holy spirit is not part of that inherited sin, but is rather a wilful choice made by the individual. Such people have in effect joined Satan in rebelling against God and are no more covered by Jesus' sacrifice than the Devil is.
quote:Luke 18:20 is quoting Exodus 20:13 "You must not murder" which is of course one of the ten Commandments given to the same people who did the killing in Numbers 31:17. There is no conflict since an execution is not murder, one is judice carried out under law, the other is not. God as Judge can certainly sentence people to death and have the Israelites carry out the execution. quote:Jehovah is Almighty, no one is equal to him, he alone is the creator of all things. There are no other all powerful Gods like Jehovah, he is unique. We agree on that, what we disagree on is that Jesus is called a mighty god and yet is not part of Jehovah. You believe that the statements that Jehovah is the only God, prohibit the existence of other lesser 'gods' or mighty gods. Angels in the Bible are called gods. (Psalm 82:1) "God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; In the middle of the gods he judges:" In this verse the word "elohim" (god) is used in regard to Jehovah's angels. (Psalm 8:5) "You also proceeded to make him a little less than godlike ones," Both scriptures use the Hebrew word "elohim" which means "gods" and when Paul quotes Psalms 8:5 "You made him a little lower than angels;" he uses the word 'angels' since that is who the 'gods' are in Psalms. So when God states that there are no other Gods, he is not saying he doesn't have any angels who are called gods, what he is saying is that there are not other Gods like Almighty Jehovah the creator of all things. The use of the term 'god' in those scriptures is in the absolute sense, not in a lesser sense, other wise it would be a major conflict of scripture, for the Bible writers who recorded the "no other Gods" also wrote about there being other gods. Obviously the writers never intended to imply that there were no other lesser gods, the statements can only be understood as stating that there were no other Gods like Jehovah. Jehovah is unique, he is all powerfully and not one can compare to him, there are no other Gods in the supreme sense. Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
wmscott Member (Idle past 6279 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Truthlover;
Very nice post, loved the historical background you provided. I have read a bit on the history of the Trinity too, but I haven't tried bringing it into the debate since then I would probably end up arguing about what this or that historical source stated and due to the shifting power between the two camps, many people made differing conciliatory statements at different times while sometimes concealing their own beliefs. But the evidence as you point out is unrefutable that the early Christians did not believe in the Trinity and it only arose progressively centuries later. On the holy spirit, it is not clearly defined because it is not a person, it is a thing or power. That is why it has no personal name, how people can be filled with and baptised with it. That is why the holy spirit isn't mentioned at John 17:3 "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." and why Stephen despite being filled with the holy spirit, didn't see it. Acts 7:55-56 "But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God's glory and of Jesus standing at God's right hand, and he said: "Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God's right hand." Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
wmscott Member (Idle past 6279 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Legend;
What Truthlover posted is historical fact. ("The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies." Britannica) I have read the same account in secular history books. But I haven't resorted to using the historical development of the Trinity over time to show the fact that it has a post biblical origin, since I don't want to spend my time arguing about what this or that person said so long ago, when I all I have to do is use scripture to disprove the Trinity which is what counts in the end anyway. But since Truthlover brought up the historical angle, argue it with him. As I posted before, you are in error on early Christians being taught to pray to Jesus, they were taught to pray to God in Jesus' name. John 16:23 "Most truly I say to YOU, If YOU ask the Father for anything he will give it to YOU in my name." They were to pray to Jehovah God in the name of Jesus. Christ is not Jehovah, he stands between us and his Father and acts as a go between, a mediator. 1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus," Since Jesus is our mediator, he can not be Jehovah, for if he was there would be no mediator since we would be dealing directly with God himself. Paul stated that this was so at; Galatians 3:20 "Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, but God is only one." so since Jesus is the mediator he can not be Jehovah. For as Paul states, if Jesus and Jehovah were the same person, then there would be no mediator. It is not possible for Jesus to fulfill his roles as mediator and high priest, if he was part of a Trinity. The Trinity doctrine is in direct conflict with what Paul taught the congregations. Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
wmscott Member (Idle past 6279 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Legend;
quote:Only the Bible is inspired, so it is the final authority. I do not ignore early church tradition, for it clearly shows how the Trinity developed after the Bible writing was completed, showing the Trinity to be developed from non biblical sources, for if the Trinity was scriptural or taught by Jesus or any of his disciples, the Trinity would have come in one complete package fully developed and fully explained. The long difficult and bloody birth of the Trinity reveals it as the offspring of the thoughts of men, not God. quote:Incorrect, Paul never taught that we are to pray to Jesus, we are to call on his name by recognizing him as our lord and savior. Let's look at the verses and see if the term "calling upon" can refer only to prayer. Acts 9:14 "he has authority from the chief priests to put in bonds all those calling upon your name." Saul wasn't hunting for people who said a pray to Jesus, he was looking for those who were Christians, followers of Jesus Christ. Acts 3:6 "In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, walk!" Here Peter calls on the name of Jesus to heal someone, notice he wasn't praying to Jesus. Acts 10:43 "everyone putting faith in him gets forgiveness of sins through his name." We are saved through Jesus' name, on the value of his sacrifice, notice the 'putting faith in", this is not referring to praying to Jesus, it is talking about much more, the whole life of being a follower of Jesus. Acts 22:16 "Rise, get baptized and wash your sins away by your calling upon his name.' Once again the calling upon his name, is not a prayer, but a repentance and becoming a follower of Jesus. Calling upon Jesus is not praying to Jesus, it is taking advantage of what Jesus has made available for us and bringing our lives in harmony with his will. Notice Colossians 3:17 "do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, thanking God the Father through him." we are to do everything in Jesus' name, and we are to thank Jehovah through Jesus. We are not to pray to Jesus, we are to Pray to Jehovah through Jesus as our mediator. To pray to Jesus would be to worship him and Jesus himself said. "'It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.'" Matthew 4:10 Jesus was very explicit that all worship was to be directed to Jehovah God alone.
quote:Not according to Paul. As I had posted before. quote:Now the way Trinitarians try to get around verses like this in the Bible is they play a sort of Trinity shell game, for one scripture they call the Trinity one and for the next they say three, which makes it sort like trying to hit a moving target. So let's pin the Trinity down, it has a dual nature of three and one at the same time and all times. It can not be three separate beings or just one being, it always has to be a three in one combo. According to the Trinity Jesus is God, and "God is only one" so Jesus if he is God, he and God are one person. Which would mean according to Galatians 3:20, that there was no mediator. The scripture is clear, God is one and if there is only one, there is no mediator. A mediator stands between the two parties in a contract and acts as a neutral party. According to what Paul taught, God is one and when there is only one there is no mediator, and yet at 1 Timothy 2:5 Paul stated that Jesus is the mediator between God and men. For Jesus to be the 'third party' between Men and God, he can't be God as the Trinity doctrine demands. Paul doesn't teach the Trinity, he is clearly stating that Jesus is not part of God, Jesus is a separate being who can act as an independent mediator. Jesus is the greater Moses, just as Moses acted as the mediator of the Law covenant, Jesus was the mediator of the New Covenant. Jesus is no more part of God than Moses was, both had very simular roles to play one being the prophetic fore type of the other. Numbers 21:7 "And Moses went interceding in behalf of the people." That is what a mediator does and it what Jesus does for us. Romans 8:34 "Christ Jesus is the one who died, yes, rather the one who was raised up from the dead, who is on the right hand of God, who also pleads for us." Even after he was raised to a higher position upon his return to heaven, Jesus Christ pleads before Jehovah for us as our mediator between us and God. Jesus could not fulfill this role as mediator if he was part of God, for as Paul said "there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, but God is only one." Paul even directly applied this point to Jehovah God in this verse. There is no way Jesus can be part of a Trinity and still be the mediator according to what Paul wrote under divine inspiration of the holy spirit. Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
wmscott Member (Idle past 6279 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Legend;
quote:To support your argument that calling upon Jesus' name means that we are to pray to him, would require that calling upon someone's name always means praying to that person. I have already shown you several scriptures in the NT that show that calling upon some one's name doesn't have to mean praying to that person, now I will show you the same point in the OT. Genesis 12:7-8 "After that he built an altar there to Jehovah, who had appeared to him. Later he moved from there to the mountainous region to the east of Bethel and pitched his tent with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east. Then he built an altar there to Jehovah and began to call on the name of Jehovah." In these verses Abraham builds two altars to Jehovah, but only after building the second does he begin to "call on the name of Jehovah," why is that? Altars are for worship by offering a sacrifice so that one's requests maybe favorably heard, so Abraham had certainly been praying to Jehovah. What Abraham apparently did with the second altar that he didn't do with the first, is that he preached about Jehovah and started a public worship of the true God. His calling on God in this verse is in the form of his acting as a witness or representative of Jehovah. Some translations will have a reference in a footnote to this effect and some translate it bring this point out more. "and he buildeth there an altar to Jehovah, and preacheth in the name of Jehovah."Genesis 12:8 -- Young's Bible. So in verse 8, Abraham's calling on the name of Jehovah doesn't mean that he said a prayer to Jehovah, it is referring to his preaching. So while Abraham's preaching undoubtedly included praying, the term 'calling on the name of Jehovah' can include much more that just prayer. In the Bible some words are used with added meanings, like 'knowing' god. Exodus 6:3 "And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but as respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them." They knew God's name was Jehovah, but they had not seen the powerful works that Jehovah was going to do, which revealed some of the power behind the name.The same is true of the term "calling" on some one's name, it can mean prayer and in some verses such as the ones you cited, it does. But in other verses it can have a much broader meaning as I showed in the NT in my last post. In the OT, we can see this same point expressed at Proverbs 18:10 "The name of Jehovah is a strong tower. Into it the righteous runs and is given protection." We enter God's name by calling on it, and we do that by our whole conduct which includes prayer. Hosea touches on this at 7:14 "And they did not call to me for aid with their heart," here Jehovah is not talking about prayers, he is talking about the people's motivation or the kind of people they were. Which was wicked with wicked hearts, they had no heartfelt desire to serve God. quote:If we check the verses it is 'obvious' that is not what they say. 1 Corinthians 1:2 "to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to YOU who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all who everywhere are calling upon the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:" Paul is referring to all Christians everywhere, he is not referring to praying specifically, he is referring to the whole way of life as Christians. Romans 10:12-13 "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for there is the same Lord over all, who is rich to all those calling upon him. For "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved." Paul again is referring to the same whole Christian way of life, I included the next verse because it ties in by showing that the 'calling' saves. Now you know that a person isn't saved by making one prayer, it is following the Christian way of life, walking in the footsteps of the Christ that saves. Part of that of course includes prayer, and if you want to take this verse as just talking about prayer, the second verse shows that those prayers while made in the name of Jesus are to be made to Jehovah. quote:You are taking one verse and ignoring the context, this verse is part of a discussion. Jesus clarifies the point in John 15:16 "that no matter what YOU ask the Father in my name he might give it to YOU." and he restates the point again. John 16:23-26 "If YOU ask the Father for anything he will give it to YOU in my name. Until this present time YOU have not asked a single thing in my name. Ask and YOU will receive, that YOUR joy may be made full. "I have spoken these things to YOU in comparisons. The hour is coming when I will speak to YOU no more in comparisons, but I will report to YOU with plainness concerning the Father. In that day YOU will ask in my name, and I do not say to YOU that I shall make request of the Father concerning YOU." That is what Jesus and his disciples are talking about when they ask Jesus, the are asking Jehovah in Jesus' name as our mediator to Jehovah God. quote:You are referring to 2 Corinthians 12:8 "I three times entreated the Lord" which yes is a reference to Jesus. Notice also 2 Corinthians 12:9 "yet he really said to me: "My undeserved kindness is sufficient for you; for [my] power is being made perfect in weakness."" Paul when he made his request to Jesus got a reply! That normally doesn't happen when you pray, Paul made no big deal about because he didn't make his request in a prayer. Notice the preceding verses, Paul is speaking about a man who was caught away to heaven, if you read the context the man was Paul himself. Paul apparently made his request to Jesus in person when he spoke with him in this vision or one of the others he had. Galatians 1:12 "neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught [it], except through revelation by Jesus Christ." Galatians 2:2 "But I went up as a result of a revelation." quote:Revelation 22:20 "Amen! Come, Lord Jesus." John's statement is not a prayer, prayers end with the word 'amen,' they don't normally start with it. John is staying he agrees with Jesus' statement that he is coming. He could also be relying to Jesus in the vision. Either way, his statement is not a prayer. quote:Yes that is what I thought you have been saying, and like I said before. quote:If Jesus was a manifestation/facet of God, he would be part of God and God is one. So as Paul stated at Galatians 3:20 "Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, but God is only one." According to both your definition and Trinity doctrine, Jesus and God are one, which according to Paul would mean that there was no mediator. Jesus had to be a completely separate being to be a mediator between God and man. He had to be in the middle, between the two parties, which he couldn't do if he was a 'facet' of God. For if he was part of God, as Paul stated "God is only one", he could not be a separate party to act as a mediator. In Galatians 3:20 Paul clearly states that God is one, and when dealing with only one person, there is no mediator. Since Jesus was the mediator, it was impossible for him to be part of God, according to Paul. Paul obviously didn't believe in a Trinity, he clearly believed that Jesus was separate from God. quote:Incorrect, Jesus would never do anything against his Father's will, but he is certainly capable of doing so. Look at the devil, he was once a perfect angel and he choose to go a against Jehovah's will. That is why he tested Jesus, Jesus could have failed the test, his remaining faithful was a willful choice not a preprogrammed trait. Jesus is our exemplar, he set a perfect example of faithful loyal obedence to Jehovah, it wouldn't be that if Jesus faithfulness wasn't by choice. quote:Reread the parts in bold. Yes Jesus didn't have to be an impartial arbitrator, but he was the go-between, the intermediary agent. As such he had to be in the 'middle' between the two parties, he could not be one of the two parties or he couldn't be in the middle. Merriam-Webster agrees with Paul, Jesus could not be a part of God and yet still act as our mediator. Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
wmscott Member (Idle past 6279 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Tal;
Your post, while very imaginative, highlights what happens to Trinitarians when confronted with scriptural conflicts with the Trinity doctrine. They take flights of fancy that would make an imaginative three year old trying to explain an empty cookie jar, blush with embarrassment. Instead of confronting the obvious, that the Trinity is non-biblical, they fly off into a philosophical fog so dense that they don't have to look at what they don't want to see. Can you imagine the simple fishermen who were the first followers of Christ, saying what you said? The solution is simple, there is no Trinity. Anything that can't be explained simply, isn't true. (even the most complicated discoveries in science boil down to a few simple equations.) The spirit realm or 'heaven' is not a higher dimension of our universe, since it and God, existed before the creation of the universe. Sincerely Yours; Wm. Scott Anderson
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
wmscott Member (Idle past 6279 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Tal;
So what are spirits in your opinion?
In the Bible we are given very little information as to physical composition of spirits, Paul did provide some insight here at.1 Corinthians 15:40-54 "And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. The glory of the sun is one sort, and the glory of the moon is another, and the glory of the stars is another; in fact, star differs from star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. It is even so written: "The first man Adam became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven. As the one made of dust [is], so those made of dust [are] also; and as the heavenly one [is], so those who are heavenly [are] also. And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one. However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: "Death is swallowed up forever." So according to Paul, spirits do not have flesh or blood and are nonphysical, they are not made of matter. There is also only one 'type" of spirit body, and all the spirit creatures have this one form or type of spirit body. Philippians 2:5-6 "Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God." Jesus Christ has the same 'form' or type of spirit body as does Jehovah God. This point is explained more at; Hebrews 1:1-4 "God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places. So he has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs." Jesus is like God in two ways, physically having the same type of spirit body and having the same goals and qualities. Notice that Jesus "had become better than the angels" showing that the angels also have the same type of spirit body as Jesus and God, since Jesus' elevation above the angels is because of his being given a more powerful position rather than a different form from them. The bodies that the spirits have, existed before our universe was created, as shown by this scripture below and others too. Colossians 1:15-17 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist," So whatever the spirits are made of, it had to exist before our universe was made, so it is not of our universe and is of course nonphysical. We may get a clue as to the nature of spirit bodies from Paul's statement at; Hebrews 1:7 "Also, with reference to the angels he says: "And he makes his angels spirits, and his public servants a flame of fire."" While this verse probably refers more to the angels power and ability execute justice, it could also have a reference to their bodies being made of what we would think of as a sort of very powerful and hot energy. But not a form of energy that we know of, since this form would of had to predate the creation of our universe and all of it's matter and energy. The nearest thing in our universe to this 'spirit body energy' would probably be the center of a star like our sun. If an angel were to appear in his true form near one of us, it would possibly be like standing in front of a open door to the center of the sun. Anyone standing in front of such a open door would be vaporized in a flash, by a "flame of fire". Jehovah God has the same form as his angels, just as animals are flesh and blood but some are much more powerful than others, he has greater power than his angels while composed of the same form. It would be expected that the one who created the universe with it's stars, quasars and super novas, would be even more powerful than they are in his form. Which God being made out of such a powerful energy would explain why, at Exodus 33:20 God stated that "no man may see me and yet live." Jesus affirmed God's statement at Exodus at John 1:18 "No man has seen God at any time;" the reason is simple, God is so powerful that we would be vaporized by his mere physical presence. Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
wmscott Member (Idle past 6279 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Hangdawg13;
We are dealing with things we cannot comprehend. Absolutely, I was speculating, Tal asked my opinion and I gave it. What I posted was a guess, an educated guess inferred from a few scriptures and some common sense, but still a guess. The finer points I can't argue, because I can't effectively argue a guess. But some of the basic points are a matter of scriptural fact. 1 Corinthians 15:40 "there are heavenly bodies" and Jesus in his body or whatever is the same type as God. Hebrews 1:1-4 "the exact representation of his very being,"
I think we should recognize approximations and anthropomorphisms for what they are and never assume them to be a perfect idea of the real thing. For now, we only know in part; our minds are confined to universe we live in and any attempt to state in human terms with certainty what lies beyond is pure speculation. Yes I agree, but we do know by scripture that Jehovah, Jesus and all the angels; have spiritual bodies. These bodies as I posted before, are not physical or anything that we know or can comprehend. Which is why I compared them to some form of energy, an energy being without any physical body, a thing not of this universe. No one can define what these nonphysical spirit bodies are, but the spirit creatures have them, whatever they are. Jehovah, Jesus and the angels are real and exist, they are not imaginary and hence have some kind of presence or 'body' in some sense of the word. When Satan is killed, something is destroyed, that 'something' is his spirit body. If there wasn't a spirit body that could be destroyed, then the Devil couldn't be killed, any more than you can literally kill a fictional character. Reality requires a real thing, even if we can't understand what it is. Sincerely yours; Wm Scott Anderson
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
wmscott Member (Idle past 6279 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Mike_King;
I checked out your link, and it was all old and wrong arguments. None of their arguments hold up, just as they didn't hold up decades ago. In arguing against the usage of the term 'god' in a lesser sense they made the statement: John was a monotheistic Jew. He could never believe in more than one Being Who can rightly be called "God." Which is shown to be in error by what John recorded Jesus as saying at: John 10:34-35 "Jesus answered them: "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said: "YOU are gods"'? If he called 'gods' those against whom the word of God came," Jesus was of course quoting Psalm 82:6. Jesus pointed out that in scripture Jehovah God used the term 'gods' in reference to men. John of course wrote this account down, so he used the term god or gods in the lesser sense just as Jesus did. Which flatly contradicts their whole argument. Paul also used the term god in reference to others aside from Jehovah. 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 "just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," there is actually to us one God."2 Corinthians 4:4 "the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers." The lack of the Greek word 'ton' before the second theos at John 1:1 indicates a lesser use of the word theos. Which makes it pretty clear that in reference to Jesus he was saying with God and then god like. There is no scriptural support at John 1:1 for claiming that Jesus is God almighty. Basically all your link did was to try to argue their way around this basic point. Even a number of Trinitarian Bible scholars state that there is no support for the Trinity doctrine at John 1:1. The supposed support is an artifact of translation and interpretation.
There is obviously no scholarly support for the rendering of "a god," and there is massive scholarly argument against it. It is not a valid translation in any way.
Certainly "massive' numbers of trinitarian scholars are against it, a number of scholars agree with the NWT's rendering of John 1:1. ( "A possible translation . . . would be, 'The Word was a god' Professor C. H. Dodd) The rendering is an acceptable translation of the Greek text. The obvious error of their statement is shown by the fact that a number of Bible translations have simular rendering, using the second 'god' in this verse in a lesser form. Some translations show this by using 'god' in small letters instead of 'God' with a capital letter.The Emphatic Diaglott, of 1864, "And the LOGOS was with GOD, and the LOGOS was God." The Four Gospels, 2ed 1947 "And the Word was with God, and the Word was god." Some translations use the word 'deity' to show this lesser form.Simple English "The Word was with God. The Word was deity." Some use the term divine or godlike.American Translation "The Word was divine." Das Evangelium nach Johannes, "and godlike kind was the Logos." A number of translations use the wording 'a god' just like the NWT does.A 1694 translation by Collegiant Reijnier Rooleeuw "And the word was a god" The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome's New Translation: With a Corrected Text. "and the word was a god." The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, "and a god was the word." The New Testament, by James L. Tomanek. "and the Word was a God." There are also at least five German Bibles that use 'a god' at John 1:1 So the web site is wrong on all their points, as I stated above, these are old arguments and have been shown to be wrong a long time ago. For the Trinity John 1:1 is a dead horse, the fact that Trinitarians keep using it, shows the total lack of scriptural support for the Trinity. According to the Trinity Jesus is God, and "God is only one" so Jesus if he is God, he and God are one person. Which would mean according to Galatians 3:20, that there was no mediator. If Jesus was a manifestation/facet of God, he would be part of God and God is one. So as Paul stated at Galatians 3:20 "Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, but God is only one." According to your illustration and the Trinity doctrine, Jesus and God are one, which according to Paul would mean that there was no mediator. Jesus had to be a completely separate being to be a mediator between God and man. He had to be in the middle, between the two parties, which he couldn't do if he was a 'facet' of God. For if he was part of God, as Paul stated "God is only one", he could not be a separate party to act as a mediator. In Galatians 3:20 Paul clearly states that God is one, and when dealing with only one person, there is no mediator. Since Jesus was the mediator, it was impossible for him to be part of God, according to Paul. Paul obviously didn't believe in a Trinity, he clearly believed that Jesus was separate from God. Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
wmscott Member (Idle past 6279 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Mike King;
Yes I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I looked at your link and it was mostly the same old stuff that was on the first link. On Dodd, he is a Trinitarian, so of course he supports the Trinity. But the interesting part is that as a Trinitarian he made the statement about "a God" being a literal translation and then went on to use "God" because of his belief in the Trinity. Here I will quote what he said from the web site you linked to. I will put the key part in bold.
If translation were a matter of substituting words, a possible translation of [...] would be, "The Word was a god". As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted, and to pagan Greeks who heard early Christian language, [...] might have seemed a perfectly sensible statement, in that sense. ([...], said the Naassenes, according to Hippolytus, Ref. Omn. Haer. V.7.29.) The reason why it is inacceptable [sic.] is that it runs counter to the current of Johannine thought, and indeed of Christian thought as a whole.
What he means by "johannine thought" and "Christian thought" is the Trinity, so what he is saying is that at John 1:1 the reference to Jesus must not be translated literally as the Greek implies "a god" because it contradicts the Trinity doctrine!
All throughout John, Jesus links himself with Yahweh: Eg John 8:58-59, John 18:5-6 When Jesus was asked to identify himself, replies "I am", they all fall backwards at the shock and power of those words.
The old 'I am' argument doesn't work, for a very simple reason, it is an artifact of translation. The people of Jesus' day spoke Greek and used the Greek Septuagint which at Exodus 3:14 has Jehovah God stating "I am the Being" rather than "I AM" as many translations today render it. So the Jews would not have seen any connection between Jesus and Jehovah if he had replied with an "I AM", it would have been meaningless to them. Better translations of John 8:58 read "Before Abraham came into existence, I have been." or "I was" and at John 18: 5-6 Jesus is merely stating that he is Jesus the one that they are looking for, he made no claim that he was Jehovah God. The crowd was just surprised at his bold declaration that he was the one that they were looking for, if they had been awed by "God" being there, do you think they would have arrested him? You of course didn't use my favorite "I am" quote; John 14:28 "the Father is greater than I am." but I can see why you wouldn't.
You say from Galations 3:20 that God is one person. The actual Christian doctrine of trinity states at its core one GodFather,Son, Holy Spirit, each God Father,Son,Holy Spirit each distinct Yes that is indeed the Trinity creed, my question remains, since the Trinity states that they are one and Paul states there is no mediator if there is only one, and he applies it to God, so if the trinity were true, How can Jesus be the mediator? Here I will repost what I asked earlier. According to the Trinity Jesus is God, and "God is only one" so Jesus if he is God, he and God are one person. Which would mean according to Galatians 3:20, that there was no mediator. If Jesus was a manifestation/facet of God, he would be part of God and God is one. So as Paul stated at Galatians 3:20 "Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, but God is only one." According to your illustration and the Trinity doctrine, Jesus and God are one, which according to Paul would mean that there was no mediator. Jesus had to be a completely separate being to be a mediator between God and man. He had to be in the middle, between the two parties, which he couldn't do if he was a 'facet' of God. For if he was part of God, as Paul stated "God is only one", he could not be a separate party to act as a mediator. In Galatians 3:20 Paul clearly states that God is one, and when dealing with only one person, there is no mediator. Since Jesus was the mediator, it was impossible for him to be part of God, according to Paul. Paul obviously didn't believe in a Trinity, he clearly believed that Jesus was separate from God.
If you are willing, I can send you some notes on the trinity which should clear this matter up? My e-mail is in my profile, you may send your notes. But if they are not too long, why not post your notes? If you have notes that could really clear up the Trinity, I think everyone would want to see it since no Trinitarian has ever been able to do that. Of course us non-Trinitarians have already done that, just that the Trinitarians don't like the simple answer that the Trinity is obviously non-biblical. Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
wmscott Member (Idle past 6279 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Hangdawg13;
do you believe that Jesus has all the same essential characteristics of God (righteousness, justice, sovereignty, eternal life, love, omnipotence, omniscience, etc....)?
Yes and no, Jesus is like Jehovah, but he is not equal to him so he is not almighty since only one being can so or the word loses it's meaning.
God is one in essence or character and three in personhood.. . . he has described himself as three distinct persons in this way so that we can better understand him. That is how I think of the trinity.
If you are saying that Jehovah and Jesus are one in purpose but are two separate persons working together, you are scripturally correct, that is what the Bible teaches. Some Trinitarians view the Trinity as three working together as one, and other than quibbling over the fact that the holy spirit isn't a person, they have it right. If you view the Trinity as just a way of saying unity, and that is how Jehovah and Jesus are one, you are in harmony with scripture and I don't have any scriptures to use against that interpretation. If the scriptural fact that Jesus was created by Jehovah and is less powerful than Jehovah, is accepted, then you have the right viewpoint on Jesus as well. You would have effectively removed all the easy targets in a trinity debate by removing the major scriptural conflicts. Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024
