The lies behind the Miller experiment

I think what might be part of the problem here is that JF might just be afraid of being caught in what looks like a lie to us. He seems to be smart enough to realize what you all have been asking of him (to type in the quote from his textbook). But he probably re-read the passage and realized that really dosen't support evolution and how he is stuck.Maybe he thinks that if he admits his mistake he will be thought bad of, persecuted, called a liar, etc. This may be because he is a Christian and as a Christian does value his own purity or sense of purity.I think, in the spirit of boot camp, that you all should let him know that fessing up or admiting to jumping to conclusions or even admiting to lying will not cause the wrath of EvC posters to come down on him but rather that he would be gaining a measure of respect for being honest.I know plenty of times I caught myself making a statement based on something that I thought was right but when I looked back I really hadn't read or understood it carefully enough. It can be embarassing especially when you do it in front of strangers who you are tring to both impress and pursuade.Maybe knowing this JF will either come out and be honest or actually deliver the quote.

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-Nasser

Yikes! Even though we have had our differences I never wanted to get you suspended.Just for clarification, I never called JF a liar. I said in my post that either he:a) Found himself to be me mistaken and is embarrassed.
b) Is lying either unintentionally or intentionally.
c) Actually has the quote and is for some reason not posting it.One of these things is true and only JF can tell us which. In either case, admitting to a or b, or rectifying c will gain him respect with his fellow posters I believe.Be well WT and goodbye,

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-Nasser

Right! The thing is, I have even caught myself doing that sometimes. You don't think before you speak and you are so sure of something that you support what you say with something that sounds like an analogy in your head but comes out sounding like a total lie. Then instead of admitting to it you just color it and massage it until it gets forgotten.What I think we need to do is give people who have obviously caught in this situation way out by making it seem less confrontational to admit that you were mistaken. Comments like, "Put up or shut up", "show me the money or retract your claim" are very confrontational and probably do nothing to actually convince the person that this is a safe place to be wrong every once in awhile.Not to say that someone wouldn't still just dodge and juke their way out of the hole they dug. It just feels extreme sometimes the way everyone plays "pile on the creo" when they are obviously trying to shy away from a mistake. It seems that very calm and constructive coaxing by guys like Percy are often overshadowed by a whole bunch of people all demanding the same thing just less....eloquently.Of course much of this may also be in my imagination as it is difficult sometimes to get the intended tone of a post. I have mostly just been a lurker. It may very well be that we already have environment that is welcoming to admission of error here and that I am seeing it wrong. Maybe others have an opinion?

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-Nasser

Hey JF. I just want to encourage you to think about how you are actually representing the namesake of your avatar. There are many here who hold Him in high regard and don't consider evasion and ignoring others comments to be consistent with the honesty taught by Christ.I really do not want to sound condescending but I feel that you need to start thinking about Jesus here. Christians are expected to represent Christ by holding ourselves to a higher standard than what we see. Seemingly backpedaling from your original argument makes you seem dishonest to those of us reading your posts. Is that really the kind of standard of honesty you wish hold yourself to?People have already refuted the cyanide/formaldahyde issue.People are waiting for you to either come clean or produce a quote for your original claim.Please realize that you will be regarded with much more respect for being honest. There may be those who choose to throw it back in your face but I for one and I am guessing many others will certainly hold you in a higher regard for admitting when you are wrong.I don't mean for this to be a lecture but rather a soft reminder of what (or who) is really important here. Remember, you represent Christ when he dwells in you. Raise yourself to a higher standard of accountability for what you say to those who may need to be saved.