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Author | Topic: How Can Trinity Believers Explain This | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Angel Inactive Member |
Matthew 10:20 explicitly says
quote:The meaning, of course, refers to the Holy Spirit as in Mark 13:11 which notes, quote:Acts 7:55-56 speaks of Jesus being on the right hand side of God quote:The trinity was created at the Council of Nicea in the form of the Athanasian creed in the year 325 AD.. Godhead, not the Trinity, is a term found in the Bible. For examples of this see: Acts 17:29; Romans 1:20; Col 2:9. Matthew 3:16-17, which describes Jesus' baptism mentions three separate beings: God the Father, who's voice came down from heaven; Jesus the son, who was in the water; and the Holy Ghost which descended upon him as a dove would. I could go on and on, but these should suffice. My question is, how can anyone explain away these passages with a trinity theory? I will leave a link to the Online Catholic Encyclopedia where you can learn more about the Nicene Creed, and it's origins. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Nicene Creed Angel
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Angel Inactive Member |
Hi Legend,
Thank you for your input, however I have a few more questions for you if you don't mind. For starters I will answer yours.quote:No I am not a Mormon, to answer your question further, I do not believe in religion. I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, and I believe in the Holy Spirit. While I feel that you put alot of thought into your answer, I don't see how the passages that I presented to you can explain a trinity, maybe you could share that. You said quote:Can you explain to me, how the same being can be standing side by side? The problem I have had in this discussion in the past is this, trinity believers always say that these passages prove the trinity further, but they do not explain how? Another question I might ask is how can the same being look upon their own face? Such as when Jesus looked upon the face of God? Or is it simply that you believe they are seperate Beings, belonging to the same group, such as my husband, my child, and myself all belong to one family, thus making us one. Angel
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Angel Inactive Member |
Hi Mike,
Thank you for the welcome. quote: Yes, but it would still be water. That doesn't answer my question, what makes Them the same? Is Jesus to be Gods ear, mouth, arm? No He is a completely different being. Though He is Gods son, he is not God Himself. I was asking for clarification, from the scripture, as to how you (or anyone else) can claim, that They are one. Now if you are suggesting that they are as one family, I agree, and you have no argument from me. However, if you think that they are one as in the same exact Being, then that is where I have a problem. It is almost amusing to me, that the answers that I recieve from this type of discussion, beat around the bush, and avoid the scripture, the only comment that is ever made on scripture that I present is, "that just proves the trinity furthur", no explanations as to why they say it, they just say it. Then finally, after they can't answer, they usually say something to this affect,"The trinity is a mystery, not to be understood". Now seeing as how God is not the author of confussion, how can it be unexplainable? There are, I agree, certain things that noone can explain, such as emotions, or why God chose to do things a certain way, but the trinity doesn't fall into any such catagory. What I am asking for is, how can you explain the trinity from the scripture that I presented, and I have many more, if you want to take a stab at them . Angel
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Angel Inactive Member |
Hi Mike,
quote: So in essence if someone can take this scripture and say that Jesus is in fact God (the same exact Being, not two beings as one), then could it not be turned around to say that God is Jesus? Now before you say, well yeah that's my point. Think about it, because if God were in fact Jesus, then no one who seen Jesus, would have lived. No one who sees the face of God could live to tell about it. So how can that be made to be a fact? Angel
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Angel Inactive Member |
The oneness of God and Jesus consists of their being in such absolute harmony that to see and act with one is to see
and act with the other. This is the true description of their unity. The NT teaching that Jesus and his Father are one does not sustain the idea that they are one and the same deity of one undivided body. When Jesus said, "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30), he was simply saying that he and the Father work and think alike, and that to deal with one is to deal with the other. They function in perfect harmony. Jesus prayed that his disciples would be one in the same way he and the Father were one (John 17:5-22). Unmistakably, Jesus was not asking that the disciples undergo some mystifying integration of bodies. He was praying for them to be one in terms of works, resolve, and commitment. Furthermore, maybe you can answer how, if in fact Jesus were God in the flesh, how anyone can be saved? How any disciples were alive after they looked upon the face of Jesus? If there were no disciples left, because anyone who sees the face of God will not live to tell about it, how do we get the NT? To say that the disciples gave it to us would have to be a lie, unless you wanted to take the stance, which I pray that you don’t, that God was just not being honest with others, such as Moses? You won't speak of the trinity theory, or explain it, but you want others to believe in it? That just doesn't make sense. Are you not, as a disciple of Christ to teach God's Word, and teach that Jesus died for our sins? If you can't explain your trinity theory, then do you really have faith in it? I can't find a passage that has trinity in it, but I would assume that you would want everyone to be saved, to know the truth, right? I am really wanting an explanation for the passages mentioned, if you want to include others, that's fine, I will take a poke at them, but I have yet to recieve an answer from you concerning the passages. Mainly Jesus standing at the side of God, and Jesus looking into the face of God, though I didn't leave the passage for that one, so I will exclude it. Figuratively was the only answer that I have recieved, and it makes no intention in the passages before or after that it was not to be taken literally. So how can the same Being stand beside Themself? Angel
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Angel Inactive Member |
Ifen,
quote: Well, if this is a serious question, I will take a crack at it, I guess. Does He have a face, well He says that He does. Does He have a back? Again He says that He does. Do I think that He is made of some substance, well, yes, isn't everything? As far as dwelling in the Universe, I have no idea where He is, but I know that He is.
quote: Now either I am right in believing Gods Words, or can you explain this in another way? Angel
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Angel Inactive Member |
quote:Maybe you see no reason, because you do not believe. Could be possible, not sure. However, because you see no reason, doesn't make your theory so. We were made in His own image, it's a simple conclussion, from that statement alone, that He has a face. If I were to say that I see no reason to take evolution literally, would that make it so? No, absolutely not. This is a silly argument, that I don't care to have, if you have a logical statement, please share, otherwise, I could care less about your 'theory'. Just so that you know, I am strong in my faith, and you could never touch it with any theory that you could possible throw my way. Yes! Even evolution. Scientific fact, yes I am aware. Do I believe it is so? Maybe, have no reason not to believe in most of it. Angel
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Angel Inactive Member |
quote:Ok, maybe I wasn't clear, when I said He has a face. A face includes mouth, eyes, ears, nose. So of course I think that He has all the characteristics of a human face, we were made in His own image. I have never ran across this argument/discussion before, so I apologize if you are being sincere, it really seems silly to me? Angel
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Angel Inactive Member |
I take from your post that you would fall under the catagory that implies that there is indeed 3 seperate beings, united as 1, am I correct in assuming this? If so, I have absolutely no problem with your belief, I actually have no problem with anyone's belief. I really want to understand the Trinity, however it seems that you use the word Trinity, as I do Godhead. Do you believe that the unity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost being of one will and purpose, as opposed to being of one substance and conscience? In other words, do you think that Jesus was God in the Flesh, or do you think that Jesus was Jesus in the Flesh?
Angel
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Angel Inactive Member |
quote:In my experience there are at least two definitions of a Trinty. 1)Jesus, God (the Father), and the Holy Ghost are all one being, the same 'Being' in Flesh and Spirit. In other words a belief that God walked the Earth (as Jesus). 2)Jesus, God, and the Holy Ghost are all three seperate being, but united as one. For example; my husband, my children, and myself are all seperate beings with our own thoughts, and our own personalities, but we are united as one family. I have no problem with the Trinity in the second explanation that I gave. This is simply defining the Godhead, in which you can call it what you like, it is the belief that is important. It is the first explanation that I gave that puzzles me. There is listless scripture that confirms otherwise. I posted a few, but if asked I will be happy to post more. Though in your case, I don't see the need, because from what I gather, you fall into the second explanation. It doesn't matter if you want to call it a Trinity, a Godhead, or a Tree, or a House, or anything else for that matter. As I said before it is the belief and understanding that is important. Angel
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Angel Inactive Member |
quote:Again, you can call it what you want, I call that one,(2) a Godhead. Which can be found in the Bible. quote:The part where they are all one Being? quote:It gives no reason to not be spoken literally. It doesn't say will be next to, it says standing next to. If you don't mind, answer these for me?1) If no one can see the face of God without gaining instant death, how is it that, if Jesus were God, the people (followers of Christ, judges, Priests, etc.) were even alive to tell about it? 2) Why would Jesus need to pray, if He were in fact God Himself in the flesh? 3) Why would Jesus refer to God as His Father? I have a long list but these are the three that trouble me most when it comes to the trinity, can you clarify these. Without saying they are all figurative? P.S. I must have over looked your earlier post, and apologize for that, I was not trying to ignore you, I don't know how I missed it. Angel
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Angel Inactive Member |
quote:Well, it says it in the Bible, and it is taken to be a direct quote from GOd, so are you saying that He is wrong? Also, can you tell me where someone actually looked upon the face of God, I must have missed that in my many studies? quote:Major problem there, so everything that is directly from the Bible that doesn't fit into the trinty becomes figurative? I asked for an answer that wasn't figurative, if you don't have one, simply avoiding the question altogether would be better than explaining to me what other people fell, I am asking for direct Biblical teaching. quote:Well, that's better, at least you avoided the real question, instead of telling me what others think or feel. quote:Another avoidance, but it's close to an answer so I will respond. Christian= Christ Follower, so why would Jesus need to do as His followers, if He was to be the leader? Besides, I wasn't asking for a similar answer to another question, I wanted an answer for that question. "Our Father which is in heaven...." So wouldn't that also make Jesus a hipocrite (I AM NOT SAYING THAT HE IS, but that's what that answer implys) If Jesus were God, and He was saying that He (as God) is in heaven, when in fact He is here on land, doesn't that make a contradiction in itself? Angel
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Angel Inactive Member |
quote:Spoke is different from seen. So, still doesn't answer the question. When did anyone "see" the face of God? quote:But there wasn't an answer? quote:That may answer another question quite clearly, but the question that was asked was quote: .
quote:Thats is perfectly fine with me I can always agree to disagree At least you were honest in your efforts Angel
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Angel Inactive Member |
Scott,
Amen! Beautifully put! Thank you! God Bless Angel
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Angel Inactive Member |
quote: No, on the contrary, you have trinitarians that believe in the Godhead, and don't realize it. A Godhead, is a Godhead, but as I said before, it doesn't matter what you call it, it is the belief that is important.
quote:I already have, it was just avoided. quote:No offense, but no thank you, I will stick to the Bible. Just curious as to why you would believe the HU over the words of the Bible though? Angel
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