How Can Trinity Believers Explain This

Matthew 10:20 explicitly says

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"For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."

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The meaning, of course, refers to the Holy Spirit as in Mark 13:11 which notes,

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"but when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do you premeditate; but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye; for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost."

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Acts 7:55-56 speaks of Jesus being on the right hand side of God

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"..he being full of the Holy Ghost looked up steadfastly into heaven and saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God.".

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The trinity was created at the Council of Nicea in the form of the Athanasian creed in the year 325 AD.. Godhead, not the Trinity, is a term found in the Bible. For examples of this see: Acts 17:29; Romans 1:20; Col 2:9.
Matthew 3:16-17, which describes Jesus' baptism mentions three separate beings: God the Father, who's voice came down from heaven; Jesus the son, who was in the water; and the Holy Ghost which descended upon him as a dove would. I could go on and on, but these should suffice. My question is, how can anyone explain away these passages with a trinity theory? I will leave a link to the Online Catholic Encyclopedia where you can learn more about the Nicene Creed, and it's origins.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Nicene Creed

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Angel

Hi Legend,Thank you for your input, however I have a few more questions for you if you don't mind. For starters I will answer yours.

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P.S you don't have to answer this, but -out of curiousity- are you LDS by any chance ?

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No I am not a Mormon, to answer your question further, I do not believe in religion. I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, and I believe in the Holy Spirit. While I feel that you put alot of thought into your answer, I don't see how the passages that I presented to you can explain a trinity, maybe you could share that. You said

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The passages you quote do not contradict the Trinity doctrine, which purports God to be a trinity of persons, distinct in function and behaviour but one in nature and substance. A cliche example, often used, is that of water : you find water in the forms of solid (ice), liquid and gas (steam). Although of different form, they're all the same substance.

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Can you explain to me, how the same being can be standing side by side? The problem I have had in this discussion in the past is this, trinity believers always say that these passages prove the trinity further, but they do not explain how? Another question I might ask is how can the same being look upon their own face? Such as when Jesus looked upon the face of God? Or is it simply that you believe they are seperate Beings, belonging to the same group, such as my husband, my child, and myself all belong to one family, thus making us one.

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Angel

Hi Mike,
Thank you for the welcome.

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water is regarded as a substance made up of three things, yet it is still regarded as one substance.

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Yes, but it would still be water. That doesn't answer my question, what makes Them the same? Is Jesus to be Gods ear, mouth, arm? No He is a completely different being. Though He is Gods son, he is not God Himself. I was asking for clarification, from the scripture, as to how you (or anyone else) can claim, that They are one. Now if you are suggesting that they are as one family, I agree, and you have no argument from me. However, if you think that they are one as in the same exact Being, then that is where I have a problem. It is almost amusing to me, that the answers that I recieve from this type of discussion, beat around the bush, and avoid the scripture, the only comment that is ever made on scripture that I present is, "that just proves the trinity furthur", no explanations as to why they say it, they just say it. Then finally, after they can't answer, they usually say something to this affect,"The trinity is a mystery, not to be understood". Now seeing as how God is not the author of confussion, how can it be unexplainable? There are, I agree, certain things that noone can explain, such as emotions, or why God chose to do things a certain way, but the trinity doesn't fall into any such catagory. What I am asking for is, how can you explain the trinity from the scripture that I presented, and I have many more, if you want to take a stab at them .

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Angel

Hi Mike,

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"I and my father are one - him in me and me in him". Is that scriptural enough?

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So in essence if someone can take this scripture and say that Jesus is in fact God (the same exact Being, not two beings as one), then could it not be turned around to say that God is Jesus? Now before you say, well yeah that's my point. Think about it, because if God were in fact Jesus, then no one who seen Jesus, would have lived. No one who sees the face of God could live to tell about it. So how can that be made to be a fact?

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Angel

The oneness of God and Jesus consists of their being in such absolute harmony that to see and act with one is to seeand act with the other. This is the true description of their unity. The NT teaching that Jesus and his Father are one doesnot sustain the idea that they are one and the same deity of one undivided body. When Jesus said, "I and my Father areone" (John 10:30), he was simply saying that he and the Father work and think alike, and that to deal with one is to dealwith the other. They function in perfect harmony. Jesus prayed that his disciples would be one in the same way he andthe Father were one (John 17:5-22). Unmistakably, Jesus was not asking that the disciples undergo some mystifyingintegration of bodies. He was praying for them to be one in terms of works, resolve, and commitment. Furthermore,maybe you can answer how, if in fact Jesus were God in the flesh, how anyone can be saved? How any disciples werealive after they looked upon the face of Jesus? If there were no disciples left, because anyone who sees the face of Godwill not live to tell about it, how do we get the NT? To say that the disciples gave it to us would have to be a lie, unlessyou wanted to take the stance, which I pray that you don’t, that God was just not being honest with others, such asMoses? You won't speak of the trinity theory, or explain it, but you want others to believe in it? That just doesn't makesense. Are you not, as a disciple of Christ to teach God's Word, and teach that Jesus died for our sins? If you can'texplain your trinity theory, then do you really have faith in it? I can't find a passage that has trinity in it, but I wouldassume that you would want everyone to be saved, to know the truth, right? I am really wanting an explanation for thepassages mentioned, if you want to include others, that's fine, I will take a poke at them, but I have yet to recieve ananswer from you concerning the passages. Mainly Jesus standing at the side of God, and Jesus looking into the face ofGod, though I didn't leave the passage for that one, so I will exclude it. Figuratively was the only answer that I haverecieved, and it makes no intention in the passages before or after that it was not to be taken literally. So how can thesame Being stand beside Themself?

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Angel

Ifen,

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I'm curious as to what you think God is. It appears you think God has a body with a face and a backside. Do you think this body is made of some substance and has a form and a function? Does this body dwell inside the Universe we know or somewhere outside it?

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Well, if this is a serious question, I will take a crack at it, I guess. Does He have a face, well He says that He does. Does He have a back? Again He says that He does. Do I think that He is made of some substance, well, yes, isn't everything? As far as dwelling in the Universe, I have no idea where He is, but I know that He is.

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Exodus 33: 18Moses said, "Please show me your glory." 19And he said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name 'The LORD.' And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live." 21And the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, 22and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen."

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Now either I am right in believing Gods Words, or can you explain this in another way?

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Angel

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I see no reason to take them literally. The "face" of God doesn't have to mean eyes, nose, mouth but could mean direct experience of reality for example.

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Maybe you see no reason, because you do not believe. Could be possible, not sure. However, because you see no reason, doesn't make your theory so. We were made in His own image, it's a simple conclussion, from that statement alone, that He has a face. If I were to say that I see no reason to take evolution literally, would that make it so? No, absolutely not. This is a silly argument, that I don't care to have, if you have a logical statement, please share, otherwise, I could care less about your 'theory'. Just so that you know, I am strong in my faith, and you could never touch it with any theory that you could possible throw my way. Yes! Even evolution. Scientific fact, yes I am aware. Do I believe it is so? Maybe, have no reason not to believe in most of it.

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Angel

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What I want is an example from you. Do you mean a face with eyes, nose, mouth? I just don't have an idea of what you mean.

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Ok, maybe I wasn't clear, when I said He has a face. A face includes mouth, eyes, ears, nose. So of course I think that He has all the characteristics of a human face, we were made in His own image. I have never ran across this argument/discussion before, so I apologize if you are being sincere, it really seems silly to me?

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Angel

I take from your post that you would fall under the catagory that implies that there is indeed 3 seperate beings, united as 1, am I correct in assuming this? If so, I have absolutely no problem with your belief, I actually have no problem with anyone's belief. I really want to understand the Trinity, however it seems that you use the word Trinity, as I do Godhead. Do you believe that the unity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost being of one will and purpose, as opposed to being of one substance and conscience? In other words, do you think that Jesus was God in the Flesh, or do you think that Jesus was Jesus in the Flesh?

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Angel

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I would still like to know if you have a different definition for the word 'Trinity' than what I have explained.

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In my experience there are at least two definitions of a Trinty.
1)Jesus, God (the Father), and the Holy Ghost are all one being, the same 'Being' in Flesh and Spirit. In other words a belief that God walked the Earth (as Jesus).
2)Jesus, God, and the Holy Ghost are all three seperate being, but united as one. For example; my husband, my children, and myself are all seperate beings with our own thoughts, and our own personalities, but we are united as one family.I have no problem with the Trinity in the second explanation that I gave. This is simply defining the Godhead, in which you can call it what you like, it is the belief that is important.It is the first explanation that I gave that puzzles me. There is listless scripture that confirms otherwise. I posted a few, but if asked I will be happy to post more. Though in your case, I don't see the need, because from what I gather, you fall into the second explanation. It doesn't matter if you want to call it a Trinity, a Godhead, or a Tree, or a House, or anything else for that matter. As I said before it is the belief and understanding that is important.

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Angel

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This is not a definition of a Trinity, but rather of a Triumvirate, or a Triad. There is a huge difference. Members of a Triumvirate or a Triad may share common goals and purpose but they are distinct, separate beings, much like you and your family. Members of a Trinity are of the same essence, though they may exhibit distinct behaviour and form, much like water(ice,water, steam) or time (past, present, future).

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Again, you can call it what you want, I call that one,(2) a Godhead.
Which can be found in the Bible.

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Which part of the above do you find difficult to understand?

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The part where they are all one Being?

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You're presumably referring to Acts 7:55-56. I think you're interpreting this passage literally. In the context in which it is given (Stephen being stoned to death), it is largely symbolic. The phrase 'on the right hand' is often used to symbolise a position of power and authority. In this context, it symbolises the role of Jesus as a mediator to God.

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It gives no reason to not be spoken literally. It doesn't say will be next to, it says standing next to.If you don't mind, answer these for me?
1) If no one can see the face of God without gaining instant death, how is it that, if Jesus were God, the people (followers of Christ, judges, Priests, etc.) were even alive to tell about it?
2) Why would Jesus need to pray, if He were in fact God Himself in the flesh?
3) Why would Jesus refer to God as His Father?I have a long list but these are the three that trouble me most when it comes to the trinity, can you clarify these. Without saying they are all figurative?P.S. I must have over looked your earlier post, and apologize for that, I was not trying to ignore you, I don't know how I missed it.

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Angel

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First, not everyone subscribes to the idea that if you see the face of GOD that you would die. Many Christians see that as a fairly common literary device and aspect of other bronze and stone age religions. In addition, it is countered by examples where individuals did look on the face of GOD and did not die.

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Well, it says it in the Bible, and it is taken to be a direct quote from GOd, so are you saying that He is wrong? Also, can you tell me where someone actually looked upon the face of God, I must have missed that in my many studies?

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It's simply figurative.

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Major problem there, so everything that is directly from the Bible that doesn't fit into the trinty becomes figurative? I asked for an answer that wasn't figurative, if you don't have one, simply avoiding the question altogether would be better than explaining to me what other people fell, I am asking for direct Biblical teaching.

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On your second question, Jesus, before his resurection, was in the flesh. He was made man, with all of the limitations that implies.

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Well, that's better, at least you avoided the real question, instead of telling me what others think or feel.

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The third question is similar to why many Christians pray "Our Father..."

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Another avoidance, but it's close to an answer so I will respond. Christian= Christ Follower, so why would Jesus need to do as His followers, if He was to be the leader? Besides, I wasn't asking for a similar answer to another question, I wanted an answer for that question. "Our Father which is in heaven...." So wouldn't that also make Jesus a hipocrite (I AM NOT SAYING THAT HE IS, but that's what that answer implys) If Jesus were God, and He was saying that He (as God) is in heaven, when in fact He is here on land, doesn't that make a contradiction in itself?

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Angel

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As to others, IIRC, Adam and Eve spoke directly with GOD.

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Spoke is different from seen. So, still doesn't answer the question. When did anyone "see" the face of God?

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You asked. If you don't like the answer then fine.

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But there wasn't an answer?

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And I see no conflicts or contradictions. Jesus, before the resurrection, was man. I explained that. He was GOD made flesh.

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That may answer another question quite clearly, but the question that was asked was

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2) Why would Jesus need to pray, if He were in fact God Himself in the flesh?

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If you read it differently, okay. I have never asked anyone to believe as I do.

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Thats is perfectly fine with me I can always agree to disagree At least you were honest in your efforts

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Angel

Scott,Amen! Beautifully put! Thank you!God Bless

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Angel

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But, then you have two definitions of Godhead (1 and 2) which are totaly different. What is the Godhead - a Trinity or a Triad?

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No, on the contrary, you have trinitarians that believe in the Godhead, and don't realize it. A Godhead, is a Godhead, but as I said before, it doesn't matter what you call it, it is the belief that is important.

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What is so difficult to understand about this ? If you happily accept that a Being crated the universe, why is it hard to accept that this Being has three distinct personnae? Maybe you could point out your difficulty with this concept?

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I already have, it was just avoided.

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All of the above can be answered by accepting the doctrine of Hypostatic Union.

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No offense, but no thank you, I will stick to the Bible. Just curious as to why you would believe the HU over the words of the Bible though?

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Angel