God and the human mind

So? All this proves is that you value human wisdom above any religious belief.

Hawgdawg13 Well, leaving aside the validity of the logic you say it is supported by scripture,yet the scriptures were put together by men,thus it seems you accept a lot of things third hand at best.I will get back to this later today or tomorrow but could you show me the scriptures that state that God is beyond time and space and could you explain to me the concepts of time and space that those writers had in that day and age?
Good day.

I realize my first post was rambling, but...I notice you totally ignored the rest of my post(s).My faith rests on the fact that life does not make sense to me without God, the fact that we exist doesn't make sense to me without God, the fact that the prophets predicted Christ and his ministry, the fact that many people including two friends of mine have had "supernatural" experiences, the fact that everyone who believes and changes their life experience a happiness psychology can't imitate, and a myriad of other personal things have convinced me of the veracity of my belief in God.Sidelined asked if I had investigated the possibilities of self-deception, confirmation bias, wishful thinking, selective thinking, post hoc reasoning ect.1) Unless I could prove to you that God exists, I cannot not prove that I am not decieving myself.
2) If God is sovereign, confirmation bias is meaningless as far as answered prayer goes.
3) If God exists, I'm being realistic in my thinking; If he doesn't I am wishfully thinking.
4) If God is the cause of reality, I am not selectively thinking; If there is no God, there is no reason for reality.
5) If God created us, I am correct in believing He is the cause; If He doesn't exist my post-hoc reasoning that we must be the result of a cause does not make sense. Don't you think if we could give you proof that God exists, that would settle the question? But we can't give you anything that would satisfy you. Therefore it is impossible to prove to another person that our beliefs in God are true. And there is a reason: so you can continue scoffing.So there is no way to PROVE which one of us is deluding ourself in our beliefs about the existence of God. All I can say is that given the list of reasons above, belief in God seems like the only way to go for me. That is why I said my belief rests on faith, not on whatever argument can be made.Perhaps you would tell us how you have made sure to avoid those logical fallacies listed above in your belief that there is no God? (This entails proving God does not exist) Can you do that?

Thank you for your reply. But the logic is the thrust of my argument because I realize people like yourself do not consider scripture a valid means of learning about God.If you could point out logical flaws in my argument, that would be great.As far as scripture, I don't have the time right now to look up all the verses that indicate God transcends time and space... Some off the top of my head:2Pe 3:5 "They are deliberately ignoring one fact: Because of God's word, heaven and earth existed a long time ago."2Pe 3:8 "But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (Psalm 90:4)Psalm 8:3 "When I look upon Your heavens, the work of Your fingers: the moon and the stars which You have fixed;"John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being."Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."Job 38:33 "He stretches out the heavens by himself and walks on the waves of the sea. He made the constellations Ursa Major, Orion, and the Pleiades, and the clusters of stars in the south. He does great things that are unsearchable and miracles that cannot be numbered."There are others that I can't think of right now that point to his immanence and transcendence.

Hangdawg13 This makes for an interesting reply but immanence as I am aware of it means structured within reality and transcendence means beyond any knowledge or experience. Now to be structured within reality, to me means, to be accesible to investigation. Transcendent is by definition beyond our knowledge or experience so one needs ask how these people became aware of something that they cannot.But irregardless these vserses do not deal with transcendence of time and space.In order of example This is a statement that is not supported.Who is the person who originated the claim that because of God's word, Heaven and Earth existed a long time ago? Here we are given a statement from someone to a beloved that again is a fine statement to make but again we have no support for the origin of the statement and the means by which this was determined.
Who has had a day with the lord in which one thousand years has passed who then recorded the event. How well did he adapt to being in a world a millenium after spending a day with God? And how does time relate to a description of something that is not of time? Ok we are to seriously consider that God manipulated the heavens in our space-time while remaining beyond space-time. And the logic that ties this together? The satrs are not fixed but constantly in motion. More of the same insistence of a position without a qualification for why we should accept this.One also wonders how the writer knew of this.Can we clarify what is meant by "the Word"? Again a guess that requires a postulating a God to explain existence.There is no meat to the proposition of what is the event of all events the birth of our universe..This is a statement that holds no information to support itself. Again we have something that is supposedly beyond space-time and doing activities within space time.The mention of the constellations of Ursa Major and Orion as though they were meaningful on a cosmic scale reflects the lack of understanding of the appaently related stars within these constellations.For example Orion is recognised by these stars Betelguese is 1400 light years away.Rigel is also 1400 light yearsBellatrix is 240 light yearsMintaka is 920 light yearsAlnilam is 1340 light yearsAlnitak is 820 light yearsSaiph is 820 light yearsThese stars are not even close in proximity to one another just as measured form Earth.The distances between each of them is also great.So in a related note you can wonder just what God meant by asking Job if he could loose the bands of Orion.You would think a God would be aware that the constellation is not bound since He is said to create it.What are the great things that are unseachable? The miracles that cannot be numbered?To not question is to allow no way to ascertain the veracity of the statements. If those statements are devoid of content that allows us to examine them then one may question why such is the case?

Phatbot wrote:

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So? All this proves is that you value human wisdom above any religious belief.

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What it proves is that you hold your beliefs immune to any tests that would be able to ascertain the validity of those beliefs.If you don't value the methods of verifying truth that our human wisdom has developed then I challenge you to deny yourself any reliance on the result of that wisdom. The result of our human wisdom is the marvel of modern civilised society, which you rely on and take for granted everyday of your life.

Hangdawg13 wrote:

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My faith rests on the fact that life does not make sense to me without God, the fact that we exist doesn't make sense to me without God,

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If belief in a God is critical for you to make sense of life, then so be it. Continue to keep your beliefs protected by making it immune to critical thought and contrary arguments. Don't expect to convert anyone else to your faith except through appeals to emotion, and you then really have nothing to contribute to this forum other than preaching.

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...the fact that the prophets predicted Christ and his ministry,

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Prophecy has been dealt with in other threads, where I have posted this link:
Farrell Till Prophecy » Internet Infidels

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the fact that many people including two friends of mine have had "supernatural" experiences, the fact that everyone who believes and changes their life experience a happiness psychology can't imitate, and a myriad of other personal things have convinced me of the veracity of my belief in God.

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Which brings us back to the original question: Did you in anyway investigate into the possibilty of self-deception and other means of fooling yourself such as confirmation bias,wishful thinking,selective thinking,post hoc reasoning etc..?To which you finally responded:

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1) Unless I could prove to you that God exists, I cannot not prove that I am not decieving myself.
2) If God is sovereign, confirmation bias is meaningless as far as answered prayer goes.
3) If God exists, I'm being realistic in my thinking; If he doesn't I am wishfully thinking.
4) If God is the cause of reality, I am not selectively thinking; If there is no God, there is no reason for reality.
5) If God created us, I am correct in believing He is the cause; If He doesn't exist my post-hoc reasoning that we must be the result of a cause does not make sense.

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1) Not true. The reasons you believe people of other faiths are mistaken are the reasons your beliefs are also false. If you can understand how they are deceived: you can see the mechanisms that operate to decieve you.Additionally we can also test your material claims. The power of prayer? We could formulate a controlled test for that.2)What you have to show is that your results are any better than those who pray to another deity, or don't pray at all.3) Why does God operate for you in the same way as he does for those who believe in an alternate deity? Why is the life of an atheist, such as myself, immaterially different from yours? Why do all of the above seem to be affected by the same random chance opportunities, the same coincidences and the same unfortuante tribulations?Even if God exists you're being daft about your approach to him.4)If God existed, you should have a really good list of examples and evidences for him that exceed that resulting from confirmation bias,wishful thinking,selective thinking,post hoc reasoning.How would reality differ if God didn't exist?5)There would be no difference if God existed or not. You can make the same flawed assumptions whether they are based on a valid premise or not. According to you: the other religions do all the time.Replace your scenario of rationalising in light of a Christain God, with the scenario of Pretty Pink Pixies. I can apply confirmation bias,wishful thinking,selective thinking,post hoc reasoning to verfy the validity of the existence an interaction of those pixies in my life.Unless you exclude those errors in knowledge gathering you will never know if your beliefs and the "evidence" you daily use to validate those beliefs are wrong. But as you guys outlined above, it really doesn't matter.In which case, bugger off the lot of you and quit pretending you can argue for the existence of God. Blind faith belongs elsewhere.Hangdawg13 wrote:

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Don't you think if we could give you proof that God exists, that would settle the question? But we can't give you anything that would satisfy you. Therefore it is impossible to prove to another person that our beliefs in God are true.

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Of course you can. Give me something a lot more than mere blind faith. A miracle would be good, Perhaps touching the wound of Jesus. Even something logical I can trust as much as the knowledge we can gain through human wisdom. If you have nothing, admit it, be done with it and go away.Hangdawyg13 wrote:

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So there is no way to PROVE which one of us is deluding ourself in our beliefs about the existence of God.

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The deluded one is probably the one who refuses to submit his beliefs to any test, applies self-deception, confirmation bias, wishful thinking, selective thinking, post hoc reasoning and does nothing to exclude those errors and is probably the one who says they can't prove thier beliefs and has to resort to faith. The other is probably not self deluded.Hangdawg13 wrote:

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Perhaps you would tell us how you have made sure to avoid those logical fallacies listed above in your belief that there is no God? (This entails proving God does not exist) Can you do that?

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Sure.self-deception?
I have repeatably exposed myself to religious conversion processes, and sought to experience paranormal phenomena. Combined with what we know about how our brian can operate abnormally in certain circumstances I quite simply do not trust any supernatural experience that cannot be independently verifed, repeated and tested. If it can be independently verifed, repeated and tested, I was probably not self deceived.Confirmation bias?
I look at the good and the bad, in my life and others, Christians or otherwise. I also like to study those events that are incompatible with my atheist beliefs, not just anaylse those which concur.Wishful thinking?
I actually wish that there was a God watched over us and had some special eternal purpose for us. Who wouldn't! I wish for the opposite of what I see so I can't be accused of being affected by wishful thinking.Selective thinking?
As this is a type of confirmation bias, I again point out that I am drawn to those scenarios which are inconsistent with atheist beliefs: not just focus on those which agree with my beliefs.Post hoc reasoning?
I subject every supernatural claim to a controlled study. Of course my own knowledge of the world around me is gained through the scientific method.Importantly I question all my beliefs, regularly, and investigate and test alternate beliefs. I also acknowledge what I and science does not know and am prepared to admit when I am wrong. Faith and dogma do not enter into it.

Dawg,"psychology can't imitate"??? This is psychological. Belief and faith are very powerful and can result in "supernatural experiences", "mystical states", "bliss", all kinds of things. These manifest for Christians, but also for Hindus, Sufis, and Buddhists and others. These manifestation can be attributed to a divine agency. I think a more plausible explanation is these are experiences generated by the mind and part of that experience is the attribution of it to a deity.I think your faith is a powerfully good force in your life. But individuals from many different religions can be found who have experiences that parallel your own. Is it also possible you've lived in a fairly homogenous community?Faiths of several different sorts have powerful effects on individuals. William James book, THE VARIETIES OF RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE is a very interesting study of only some of possibilities. Franklin Merrel-Wolff's book PATHWAYS THROUGH TO SPACE, tells of his mystical experiences but by a different path.Buddhism and Advaita Vedanta are approaches to spiritual life with a richly developed understanding of the mind. Both traditions state that the experiences of bliss, mystical states, etc. are not the highest truth but merely experiences that demonstrate the power of the mind. These traditions claim that the highest truth lies beyond transient experience in the profound revelation of the true nature of the self.lfen

Hangdawg said:

quote:

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1) Unless I could prove to you that God exists, I cannot not prove that I am not decieving myself.

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to which Gilgamesh replied Gilgamesh, why does that have to be true? As I have pointed out in many posts, if GOD is capable of appearing and reaching out to people more than once, what limits him from reaching out again and again? If GOD is, as we believe, someone capable of thinking this Universe and all of the sublime and aesthetic rules that govern what happens, would he not be capable of reaching out to people in a format they could accept?Is there any reason to think that all the GODs might not be simply GOD?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I wonder.Some of you have missed the main point of authorship of the bible. The christian believes that It was god that authored the bible, by divine inspiration of his people. Many men, one spirit.God operates on so many more levels then us.Some snakes can see infrared light, this is a dimension they operate on, one that humans can't and haven't operated on until recently (infrared goggles etc.) Likewise their are dimensions etc, upon which god exists that we have no way to detect or comprehend. I dont have time to post the verses right now, but they include some of the ones posted earlier, by hangdawg. This is god's transcendence.No person originated the claim that heaven and earth existed before, the bible, inspired by God makes this fact KNOWN. (2peter 3:8)How does this next verse NOT relate? It directly takes a concept of time and makes a definition, or rather an analogy to God's version of time. It tells us in our "immanent" terms, of god's "transcendence"
(2 peter 3:8)Understanding is one of the most difficult things in christianity. Sometimes pride, pride in ones intelligence, thinking one can figure everything out, will blind us, when all we need is some faith. Hence blind faith. the incomprehensible nature of god is a major milestone of the christian life, and without accepting there is a god, you cannot except that he is incomprehensible. I believe you all do acknowledge god, you just refuse him.ill rebuttal the rest of your rebuttals later, , when i get some time, till then, thanks,

It's more accurate to describe infrared light as a "color", not as a "dimension." It's just a color we can't see unaided, not an entire universe of sensation or something. Even before we could detect infrared light, we could comprehend it. It's simply a color. Or another way to look at it: "Christianity doesn't make sense; the problem is not Christianity but your insistance that things make sense."Pardon me if I don't hop on the bus to your corner of crazytown. If I were as rude as you, I might insist that you were simply an atheist who chose to fool himself with professions of belief in something you knew doesn't exist.On the other hand, I'm not like you. I'm not so rude and arrogant that I assume I know people's hearts and minds better than they do themselves. I don't dictate to people their own religious beliefs; I take statements of faith - or non-faith - at face value.I don't believe that any gods exist. It really is that simple.

Many Christians understand that the Bible was written, revised, modified, vetted and interpreted by plain old men, that it was written by people of a given age, for people of a given age and that much of it is limited by their level of knowledge.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Thank you for your reply. I said that God was not BOUND by space-time. I did not say he could not manipulate space-time. Obviously He can manipulate it without being subjected to it if He created it. I knew this is where you were trying to lead me. But since you were so polite I did as you asked. Like I said before, you do not consider any scripture valid, so I wonder, did you ask me to provide scripture to discount my argument on the fact that I am using scripture, which is done at your request?If you are going to do this, what is the point of having a debate? I'm very disappointed. Haha... sorry, I just thought that was funny. So why did you ignore my arguments which are not based on the Bible, but instead asked me to quote some scripture?Please go back and re-read my posts if you need to and maybe we can have a productive debate instead of this little production.

Thank you for your reply. I can't put it into words, but there's a debate going on in my mind about this and other related things... just be patient with me.

Others think much like is described by Pastor John MacArthur: When something is written down, how can the mind of the author really be judged? How do we determine if the writing is based on limited knowledge or if the writing speaks from the heart?