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Author Topic:   God and the human mind
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 76 of 141 (142004)
09-13-2004 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by sidelined
09-13-2004 8:39 AM


Yes, I agree, but when science starts saying "in the begining" too, then I start to take it as fact, that there was indeed a begining.
Astronmers theorize about the big bang, hubble confirms this, as far as we can tell at the present moment. So before that what was there? another universe and collapse?
I reason it with a question. The fact that we can sit here and ASK where we came from, means that we did come from somewhere, and there was a begining. Time is a physical thing that exists solely for our existance. Wouldn't you accept this as being possible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by sidelined, posted 09-13-2004 8:39 AM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by coffee_addict, posted 09-13-2004 11:05 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 77 of 141 (142020)
09-13-2004 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by riVeRraT
09-13-2004 10:26 AM


the rat writes:
Yes, I agree, but when science starts saying "in the begining" too, then I start to take it as fact, that there was indeed a begining.
I have to say that this is a very cheap shot.
Say that you have the choice of either head or tail. My computer randomly pick head. It just happens that I worship my computer. I, then, flip a coin and, out of the 50/50 chance that it could be either head or tail, the coin lands head. I then say, "Amen to my computer!"
Taking a cheap shot at something that has a 50/50 chance of winning ain't proof of anything. The universe either had a beginning or it didn't.
I'm simply amazed that some people actually use this argument.

The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by riVeRraT, posted 09-13-2004 10:26 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by riVeRraT, posted 09-13-2004 5:21 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 78 of 141 (142026)
09-13-2004 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by riVeRraT
09-13-2004 2:51 AM


IF people are teaching you how to think, instead of teaching you knowledge and letting you figure it out for yourself, sounds like brain washing to me.
I had to comment on that statement because it couold not be more wrong.
riVeRraT, you have things 180o out. Learning how to think is a sure inoculation and the only inoculation against brainwashing. What you describe, teaching knowledge is the true definition of brainwashing.
You need to step back and re-examine some of your concepts.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by riVeRraT, posted 09-13-2004 2:51 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by riVeRraT, posted 09-13-2004 5:27 PM jar has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 79 of 141 (142121)
09-13-2004 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by coffee_addict
09-13-2004 11:05 AM


Live by the sword, and die by the sword.
Please don't let me catch you using the big band theory in any discussion.
I hope your not saying because I'm Christian, I can't agree with science also. I did feel this way before I became Christian as well.
Don't get me started on odds either. It is not a 50/50 chance. It either happened or it didn't. That doesn't make the chances of it happening 50/50, or me guessing, or God telling me that it did. I would tend to think that it did, because of several things, mostly subjective, but some objective.
Let me ask you. You think numbers are infinite? You must if you think we have a chance at going backwards infinitly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by coffee_addict, posted 09-13-2004 11:05 AM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by coffee_addict, posted 09-13-2004 5:58 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 80 of 141 (142125)
09-13-2004 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by jar
09-13-2004 11:20 AM


Yes, and no. I agree that teaching you knowledge can be brain washing also, if that knowledge is wrong
But teaching you how to think, instead of learning on your own, can be brain washing also. Who the heck is the authority on thinking anyway?
I may be a bit ignorant here, because I have not actually learned critical thinking, just read a little bit about it. But it does raise my eyebrow, as to what this can or cannot accomplish. I don't think you can teach someone to be smart.
If critical thinking would keep me from the truth, then I would say it is brain washing.
Imagine mis-interpreting critical thinking, and then thinking that way your whole life

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 09-13-2004 11:20 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 09-13-2004 8:28 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 85 by sidelined, posted 09-13-2004 9:01 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 81 of 141 (142140)
09-13-2004 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by riVeRraT
09-13-2004 5:21 PM


Could you please reread my post again? I wasn't talking about the odds of the big bang happening. I was talking about the odds of the bible agreeing with the big bang theory.
Again, let me try to explain it. You said that modern science agreed with the bible that there was a beginning. The problem was that there either was or wasn't a beginning. If anyone wants to take a blind shot at it, it's a 50/50 chance either way. There is nothing divine about the bible saying there was a beginning and science agreeing with it.
And what the hell is with the infinity thing?

The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by riVeRraT, posted 09-13-2004 5:21 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by riVeRraT, posted 09-13-2004 7:16 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 82 of 141 (142162)
09-13-2004 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by coffee_addict
09-13-2004 5:58 PM


You said it was a 50/50 chance. I asked you about infinity.
If there was no begining, then it always was?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by coffee_addict, posted 09-13-2004 5:58 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by coffee_addict, posted 09-13-2004 7:51 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 83 of 141 (142167)
09-13-2004 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by riVeRraT
09-13-2004 7:16 PM


the rat writes:
If there was no begining, then it always was?
Oh goodness... I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. I was not debating the actual chances of the universe having a beginning or not. I was pointing out that if you (any freaking being that is capable of coherent thought) have to take a guess and there are 2 choices, that's 50/50 chance. In other words, there is nothing divine about the bible saying the universe has a beginning.
Either the universe has a beginning or not. Either/or refers to 50/50 chance.
Again, I am not talking about the chances of the universe itself. I am talking about your argument that the bible is somehow divine because it said the universe has a beginning and modern science agreed.
Capice?

The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by riVeRraT, posted 09-13-2004 7:16 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by riVeRraT, posted 09-13-2004 11:54 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 84 of 141 (142173)
09-13-2004 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by riVeRraT
09-13-2004 5:27 PM


I agree that teaching you knowledge can be brain washing also, if that knowledge is wrong
Even if it is correct, that method is called brainwashing. Parrots do it well.
But teaching you how to think, instead of learning on your own, can be brain washing also.
Never. Teaching someone how to think carries no content. It can NEVER be brainwashing.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by riVeRraT, posted 09-13-2004 5:27 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by riVeRraT, posted 09-14-2004 12:10 AM jar has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 85 of 141 (142177)
09-13-2004 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by riVeRraT
09-13-2004 5:27 PM


riVeRrat
But teaching you how to think, instead of learning on your own, can be brain washing also. Who the heck is the authority on thinking anyway?
It is because we so adept at fooling ourselves that it actually is necessary to understand critical thinking. Those people throughout time who have demonstrated an ability to understand nature {read scientists} became good at critical thinking skills and this is one of the reasons for their being good at science. Mathematics also requires a good deal of critical thinking to properly absorb its lessons especially higher mathematics.
But it does raise my eyebrow, as to what this can or cannot accomplish. I don't think you can teach someone to be smart.
You might surprise yourself.Give it a try.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by riVeRraT, posted 09-13-2004 5:27 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by riVeRraT, posted 09-14-2004 12:19 AM sidelined has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 86 of 141 (142252)
09-13-2004 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by coffee_addict
09-13-2004 7:51 PM


Stop thinking so linear.
I got your point, you once again have dis-proved the bible, congrats!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by coffee_addict, posted 09-13-2004 7:51 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by coffee_addict, posted 09-14-2004 12:06 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 87 of 141 (142255)
09-14-2004 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by riVeRraT
09-13-2004 11:54 PM


Arg...
I wasn't trying to disprove the freaking bible. I was only trying to invalidate your argument, that the bible is somehow divine just because it said that the universe had a beginning and modern science was able to come up with a similar conclusion.
2 options:
(1) There was a beginning.
(2) There was not a beginning.
You really need to sharpen up your reading comprehension.

The Laminator
We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.
For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by riVeRraT, posted 09-13-2004 11:54 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by riVeRraT, posted 09-14-2004 9:00 AM coffee_addict has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 88 of 141 (142257)
09-14-2004 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by jar
09-13-2004 8:28 PM


Parrots do it well
Parrots copy words without thinking. But dispite what you think, it has been proven that parrots learn what the words mean, and then answer questions that they have never been trained to answer correctly. They do this by there own thinking power, given to them by God, not taught to them by some critical thinking process.
Teaching someone how to think can be far worse than brainwashing, its like brainwashing times 2 if its not done correctly. Whos to say what the correct way of thinking is? The panel of experts. I guess with the "right" way of thinking you could reason away anything, even a persons Love for you, how neat
Should we all think the same? How would we think of anything new, or think outside the box? You think thats a healthy way of thinking?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 09-13-2004 8:28 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by jar, posted 09-14-2004 12:21 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 89 of 141 (142261)
09-14-2004 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by sidelined
09-13-2004 9:01 PM


I fully intend to learn more about it. So I can give a more qualified opinion about it. Won't happen over night though.
Got any good links on it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by sidelined, posted 09-13-2004 9:01 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by sidelined, posted 09-14-2004 8:51 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 09-14-2004 5:16 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 90 of 141 (142263)
09-14-2004 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by riVeRraT
09-14-2004 12:10 AM


You sure don't understand.
Thinking is a skill, just like any other skill. It's a combination of technique and training. It can be taught just like any other skill.
Teaching someone how to think can be far worse than brainwashing, its like brainwashing times 2 if its not done correctly.
You'll have to explain that. LOL

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by riVeRraT, posted 09-14-2004 12:10 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by riVeRraT, posted 09-14-2004 9:02 AM jar has replied

  
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