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Author Topic:   God and the human mind
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 61 of 141 (141537)
09-11-2004 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Phat
09-11-2004 10:41 AM


Re: Wonders
Yes, there are people that believe as your quote suggests.
When something is written down, how can the mind of the author really be judged? How do we determine if the writing is based on limited knowledge or if the writing speaks from the heart?
Why would anyone judge the mind of the author by anything other than what was written down?
The GOD, and religion in general deal with the WHY of the universe.
They teach how to live with one another, what your relationship with GOD should be.
But also, every society has tried to explain the world we all live in. In each case they try to do so using the best information available.
We continue to try to explain the world around us today using the best information available. But we have far more information today than those from thousands of years ago.
Frankly, Pastor John MacArthur sounds like he is only protecting his postition, preaching, as seen in many books of the Bible, the company line.
A GOD that is capable of creating this universe, one that intuitively understand the relationship between gravity and the other forces, is not a GOD that would want us to be stupid. He is not someone who would lie to us just for the fun of it.
This message has been edited by jar, 09-11-2004 10:06 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 09-11-2004 10:41 AM Phat has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 62 of 141 (141543)
09-11-2004 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Hangdawg13
09-11-2004 2:29 AM


Hangdawg13
Ok I have obviously made the error of thinking that you were using the bible as support for your notion of a god who is transcendent.I apologize,and will start over. Here is your original arguement;
My basis for this statement lies in the fact that time is a property of this physical universe. God, the supreme being who created the universe, cannot be bound by what he has instantiated. If this were the case, God was created when the universe was created, and God could not have been the creator because there would be no capability for God to choose until afterwards.
God transcends time and space. It is incorrect to think of God as an old man with a lot of time on his hands, and it is also incorrect to think of God as mundanely rushing through all reality in an instant. He is fully experiencing and fully transcending everything because everything exists in his mind so to speak. If you really want to make an attempt to understand God, I think one of the first things you have to wrap your mind around is a being that transcends all dimensions.
Not only does this make sense to me logically, but it is supported by scripture. As far as physical evidence? Well that would be equivalent to proving God exists, which can only be done by God when he so chooses.
Space-time,mass-energy,all of it is part of a physical universe.You are starting with the premise that {A}God created the universe.You then state he is{B} not bound by the universe he created.What is not apparent is how A was able to do so while have the property of B. Where and when did He exist if Space-time did not exist till he created them? If mass-energy di not exist until he created them what did his existence entail? This is where the logic falls apart, because unless you are claiming special dispensation from logic this does not make sense.
Of course, we have the statement that god transcends space-time. What we do not have is evidence to support the notion. This does not mean it is not the case it means that we cannot know either way in which case it is valueless in a discussion.
He is fully experiencing and fully transcending everything because everything exists in his mind so to speak.
Now here we have a clever use of logic.He is fully experiencing? In what sense does he experience? How do you arrive at this assumption?
He is fully transcendent which means beyond knowledge or experience which begs the question how can we know or experience that which is not of knowledge or experience? To experience is to have had some awareness of a sequence of events occuring in a physical world.How,sir,does something beyond the physical take part in the physical?
As for mind our own minds are physical in nature and when the brain that it exists in is damaged as in a coma there is no mind to speak of in the sense of experiencing.Now you state that we and the universe are somehow extant within the mind of god.Does God have a brain? He thinks thoughts? You must substantiate the human characteristics that you are asserting he has and how they can themselves exist without material form and also how you arrive at this conclusion.
'Bye for now'
This message has been edited by sidelined, 09-11-2004 11:42 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Hangdawg13, posted 09-11-2004 2:29 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by sad2kno, posted 09-11-2004 11:32 PM sidelined has replied
 Message 127 by Hangdawg13, posted 09-17-2004 11:29 PM sidelined has replied

  
sad2kno
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 141 (141693)
09-11-2004 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by sidelined
09-11-2004 12:18 PM


like he already said, you have to wrap your mind around the concept of a being that is operating on all dimensions, and more than just aware of ours.
Isaiah 55:8-9 (his thoughts are far above ours)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by sidelined, posted 09-11-2004 12:18 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
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Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 141 (141704)
09-12-2004 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
09-10-2004 11:03 AM


Re: Brilliant
Hello Jar, my favoutite Christian.
I wrote:

1) Not true. The reasons you believe people of other faiths are mistaken are the reasons your beliefs are also false. If you can understand how they are deceived: you can see the mechanisms that operate to decieve you.

Jar replied:

Gilgamesh, why does that have to be true? As I have pointed out in many posts, if GOD is capable of appearing and reaching out to people more than once, what limits him from reaching out again and again? If GOD is, as we believe, someone capable of thinking this Universe and all of the sublime and aesthetic rules that govern what happens, would he not be capable of reaching out to people in a format they could accept?
Is there any reason to think that all the GODs might not be simply GOD?

As with many things you say, I simply have no problem with this concept. But it is not really the traditional Christian concept of God, is it? It's a tad like the Bahai.
You can look at the myriad of religions and the fact that most people (over 90%) believe in a God one of three ways: They are all wrong, only some are right, or they are all right. The last one would be the hardest to sustain, because many religious views are contrary and incompatible.
If it is the latter then God is causing some serious grief to humankind by reaching out to them in different ways, and encouraging some of them to kill those reached in other ways.
Intriguing, and it does solved the dilemma of why beleivers of different faiths claim the same evidence, but it is certainly not the approach taken by the majority of theists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 09-10-2004 11:03 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by lfen, posted 09-12-2004 1:28 AM Gilgamesh has not replied
 Message 67 by jar, posted 09-12-2004 11:56 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 65 of 141 (141708)
09-12-2004 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Gilgamesh
09-12-2004 12:45 AM


Re: Brilliant
I don't know if you would consider this would be a fourth way or not, but in Hinduism and Buddhism one comes across the notion of a developing path. The idols and Gods are there for those who need comprehensible images. As they practise their understanding hopefully will deepen and they can understand more subtle truths.
So Hinduism for example can accept Christ as a path to awakening and it does happen. So the primitive parts of religion are like the Santa Claus or the story of George Washington chopping down a cherry tree, they are lessons cast in a form to be understood by those who need simpler stories before they mature.
I don't know if this would represent Jar's thinking or not but at this point in time it represents a possibility that I'm willing to entertain.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Gilgamesh, posted 09-12-2004 12:45 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 66 of 141 (141713)
09-12-2004 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by sad2kno
09-11-2004 11:32 PM


sad2kno
you have to wrap your mind around the concept of a being that is operating on all dimensions
Really? So explain to us uninformed masses, since you have wrapped your mind around the concept,just what you mean by a being that is operating on all dimensions.Or do you mean to say you imagine you have your mind wrapped around the concept? Can you even tell us what you mean by all dimensions? How many would that be?
What are they like?Where do we find them?
Isaiah 55:8-9 (his thoughts are far above ours}
So the author of Isaiah states.How could he know what the thoughts are like in a god which you claim is transcendent of physical form and as such has no brain in which to have thoughts.Do you never question the obvious contradiction apparent in these statements?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by sad2kno, posted 09-11-2004 11:32 PM sad2kno has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 67 of 141 (141739)
09-12-2004 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Gilgamesh
09-12-2004 12:45 AM


Re: Brilliant
Gilgamesh writes:
As with many things you say, I simply have no problem with this concept. But it is not really the traditional Christian concept of God, is it?
Actually, it is very close to the mainstream Christian approach. There is an emerging movement, the ecumenical movement, which is moving towards this very belief. And it's not all that new, if you read the Koran with an open mind, you will find Christians, Jews and Muslims all described as Children of the Book. Throughout the Koran are admonishments for the faithful to refrain from trying to impose Islam on outside people.
During the great Muslim expansion they never tried to close down other beliefs or stop others from worshiping. When the local ruler in Jerusalem burned down one of the Christian Churches (used as an excuse for the first Crusade), the Sultan in Bagdad had the local ruler removed and executed and rebuilt the church at his own expense. In fact the church had been restored years before the Crusaders attacked.
Gilgamesh writes:
If it is the latter then God is causing some serious grief to humankind by reaching out to them in different ways, and encouraging some of them to kill those reached in other ways.
Well, I happen to believe that it is not GOD's doing that is the problem. Rather, it is individual humans perverting religion to secure their own power base. When you look at the teachings of a Gene Scott, Jim Bakker, Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts or the militant Islamics or Jews or Hindus or pick any religion, they are simply in it for themselves. They are using religion to further financial or political agendas. It's only about power.
It is little, provincial minds.
The fighting in the middle east is not over religion, it is about who will be in power, who will control land. In that struggle, as in terrorism, religion is simply one of the tools used by bad guys to recruit and motivate those who can be swayed, those who do not apply critical thinking to their belief system.
That is the big reason I have never opposed the OP of this thread. When you divorce critical thinking from belief, you open yourself to manipulation by the unscrupulous. And that happens all the time. Unfortunately, with the modern media, satellites, tv and the internet, those, like the names I have mentioned who would pervert religion, can reach far larger audiences than a preacher standing on the shore, trying to set up a fish fry.
I typed "the" but the stupid forum software (it could not have been me) converted my typing to an "in" so I had to edit it to correct the software's error.
This message has been edited by jar, 09-12-2004 11:35 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Gilgamesh, posted 09-12-2004 12:45 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 68 of 141 (141962)
09-13-2004 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by sidelined
09-04-2004 1:46 PM


Would you ask this of, say, Halle Berry if she said I Love you sidelined, sleep with me?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by sidelined, posted 09-04-2004 1:46 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by sidelined, posted 09-13-2004 8:35 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 69 of 141 (141963)
09-13-2004 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by sidelined
09-09-2004 9:15 AM


First three words of the bible, In the begining.
That means before that there was none.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by sidelined, posted 09-09-2004 9:15 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by sidelined, posted 09-13-2004 8:39 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 70 of 141 (141967)
09-13-2004 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
09-02-2004 10:36 PM


A full baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Hey, just ow many coincidences would it take for you to believe in God?
A miracle? A felling? Something supernatural?
I think you are making a mistake to try and use science and human rational explanations to reason away God's exsistance. The limited knowledge you and I pocess about the universe and our exsistance is not enough.
As far as critical thinking goes, it can sometimes be a long process. You can use it to find God, or disprove God in your own mind. Nothing special here. Its just a word. IF people are teaching you how to think, instead of teaching you knowledge and letting you figure it out for yourself, sounds like brain washing to me.
I do not feel as though I have been brain washed by religion. I only read the bible, and compared the lessons within to real life, present time, and then was able to see the truth.
You know when you know the truth about something? And then someone tells you the truth, the feeling you get? Times that by 1000 and thats the feeling you get when God is awakened in you.
You are going to be a great person in the Lord once you figure out what you were created for. I really feel that you are going to help a lot of people, once you find the Lord. You will, God just let me know.
You are going to travel and help needy people. Your skills are going to be great tools of the Lord, God bless you.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Rei, posted 09-13-2004 3:10 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 78 by jar, posted 09-13-2004 11:20 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 71 of 141 (141973)
09-13-2004 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by riVeRraT
09-13-2004 2:51 AM


You know when you know the truth about something? And then someone tells you the truth, the feeling you get? Times that by 1000 and thats the feeling you get when God is awakened in you.
Schizophrenics will agree, about (insert their particular delusions here). Just because something makes you feel alive and awake doesn't make it real. Realize that people around the world have been made to feel equally or more alive by their religions, whose beliefs on many subjects may stand in stark oppositions to yours.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by riVeRraT, posted 09-13-2004 2:51 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 72 of 141 (141988)
09-13-2004 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by riVeRraT
09-13-2004 2:21 AM


riveRrat
Do you mean before or after the paramedics try to restart my heart?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by riVeRraT, posted 09-13-2004 2:21 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 73 of 141 (141989)
09-13-2004 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by riVeRraT
09-13-2004 2:32 AM


RiVeRrat
The author of the bible was human with no actual idea of how the universe began.When you are starting a narrative about how the world around you came to be you have to start with something."once upon a time," wouldn't cut it here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by riVeRraT, posted 09-13-2004 2:32 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by riVeRraT, posted 09-13-2004 10:26 AM sidelined has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 74 of 141 (142002)
09-13-2004 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Rei
09-13-2004 3:10 AM


The word schizophrenics does not apply here, as I do not meet all the criteria for being one.
I have not experienced any of the following:
hallucinations, delusions, blunted emotions, disordered thinking, and a withdrawal from reality.
The truth is a feeling not covered by any of the above.
The nine gifts of the spirit, might fit one of the critiria, but that does not constitute it as schizophrenia. When 2 people have the same exact delusion, it would be hard to connect that with schizophrenia.
Realize that people around the world have been made to feel equally or more alive by their religions, whose beliefs on many subjects may stand in stark oppositions to yours.
That is irrelevant evidence that niether falsifies one religion or the other. You would be a hypocrite if you claimed that the fact that millions of people believe in something, then it disproves another thing, because then one of them would have to be right. Your using the evidence of millions of people believing in something to say, "your religion can't be real". Well one of them could very well be real, or all of them. Each of them have went their own way, so that one day they would come to know Christ, and the prophecies would be filled.
If we truely followed what Christ was teaching us, then this world would have no problems. But man won't let that happen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Rei, posted 09-13-2004 3:10 AM Rei has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 75 of 141 (142003)
09-13-2004 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by sidelined
09-13-2004 8:35 AM


By your response, I would say that you wouldn't question her love for you with reasoning.
I don't think you would stop her and say, "wait, I don't believe that you love me, prove it scietifically so that I will indeed make love back to you"
So is Christ's love for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by sidelined, posted 09-13-2004 8:35 AM sidelined has not replied

  
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