Evolution is NOT science: A challenge

Most definatly, and other things as well.And no I haven't witnessed any species changing into another species.
A bacteria is still just a bacteria.

I don't but other people do.
At one point in my youth it was a good reason to not believe in God for me. So I can speak for myself as well.Is that fact enough?

huh?
You can't see them, and its a theory, it was very clear what they were teaching. I am not saying if they exist or they don't, can you egt that?Anyway my points have been made on this thread, I didn't come in here to start arguing about evolution and all of science. I love science, even if I don't understand it completely, but I probably understand it better than 97% of the rest of America.
But of me its not where I put my faith, which is what I have said since day one in this forum.

Show me a christian who deserves it, and prove that he/she deserves it.
Be careful when you try to use other people as examples, because you really won't know the truth about them. It would be between them and God.Innocent children can suffer from the sins of their ancestors. Sin is passed down, we are born into sin. Its not the sin, but the sin that dwells within. Do you realize how hard it is to stop sinning? The bible speaks of this. But if you break the chain your generations will be bleessed for years to come. I see this happening, in others, as well as my own family. I am working really hard to break the years of sin from my ancestors. It is only with the help of the Holy Spirit and prayers of others that can get me through it. It is the most difficult thing I have ever tried to do.
But the point at which I am at with my relationship with God, it is something that I am enjoying to do, and I give all the glory to him.It became very apparent to me how and why Jesus died for our sins. you can also study history and see the change once you understand it.Unfortunatly the devil weaves a very tangled web, and it seems to me that the smarter you are the more weaves you have to go through to find the truth. This why I have said before that "stupid", or "not so smart" people have a quality that I admire.

No jar, I don't mean that at all. I am not against medical care at all.
I believe prayer can cure what medicine can't, or sometimes cure you before you ever have to go to a doctor.I also don't believe in Christian scientists.
This all goes back to what being a true christian is all about. Unfortunatly, like I told schraff, that the devil weaves a tangled web, and to me the people in that story seem like they were caught up in it.I mean you can reality check your own heart and know that God would have never wanted that, its obvious to me and you.
But it wasn't God fault that it happened, it was the result of stupidity, or deception in their religious teachings on the parents.So that brings me to the point where I can see a lot of very smart people here in this forum. They seem to readily reconize what is from God and what is not. But instead of trying to set the world straight, they choose to say that religion must be no good, because of stories like the one you told, and history.I cry out to all of you who know in your hearts what and who God must be. I know you guys know because he is in your hearts. So if you know who God is, don't keep him in your little box, he doesn't belong there. Go change the world, and make it a better place through the power of God. I think most people in this forum would make better christains than 80% of most christians out there.

Only when one treats it as science. Thats what it should be.I see where your going with this. Here's a quote from the scientology home page: Official Church of Scientology: What is Scientology?If compared to evolution, with that way of thinking, anything is possible.I am not saying that evolution=religion. I am also sure that any creationalist is not saying that in the literal sense. Its a metaphor. People often say things like "he watches football every Sunday religiously", but we all know that watching football is not a religion. But if it starts replacing religion, then there is a concern on behalf of the church.I don't know about other people, but I believe in God, and what I have found is so beatiful, that I only wish to share it with others. I do not not want to force it down anybodys throat either, thats not how you find God, but you do need to hear about it once and a while, otherwise you would have a hard time finding him in todays society. If TOE somehow blocks that, and it does contribute to that, then that is when TOE starts replacing religion.I personally do not call TOE a religion, but if someone uses the idea that we evolved and were not created it to replace religion, and not believe in God, then I claim that is where they put there faith.

Thats exactly my point. Its really not what Jesus wanted at all.

Answers
1 The barrier is our design. Although we could become taller, shorter, or different colors through natural selection, it wouldn't make us grow a third arm because we needed to wipe our ass at the same time we are picking our nose and masterbating. (Its humor, laugh a little)
RNA is the blueprint of our make-up, so its like a computer program being executed. Maybe we that is just the limitations of our design.
This is just a thought, I really don't know enough to come up with a better one.2 I don't need to falsify the entire fossil record. Most of the time the scientist do it for me. They put things in order that suite the TOE and then connect the gaps with lines making you think there is a connection between species. So the fossil record speaks for itself.For instance, most charts of the fossil record I have seen show the species from the cambrian period developing at different times so that they can connect lines together to show how TOE would make sense, when in actuality it was an explosion of different species, that when shown on a true time line wouldn't make sense or fit into the TOE.3 What does morphological similarity and genetic similarity have to do with common decent? Isn't it becasue things that morph also would be similiar genetically, its the way they were designed. Just like a honda is very similiar to a toyota lol.
When you started learning about science, you started with the easy stuff first, didn't you?Let me ask you a few questions. When was the first complex life form here on earth? And how many base pairs of DNA where there in it?Yes I believe we should teach TOE, and about God too.This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 08-26-2004 06:39 AM

Thanks for putting not only words in my mouth, but now thoughts in my head, great. Is that how you conduct your scientific research as well? No I don't, I have a very open mind. Which means absolutly nothing to me. When those actual scientists wake up in the morning, they have a hard-on, and need to piss, just like me. Just like a priest too. We all crap on the same pot.
I know exactly my limitations, and I am very honest about it. But just because someone may know more about TOE than me, doesn't make him/her actually smarter than me. I have many skills in life, more than you would ever think.There are actual scientists who don't believe in the TOE, what about them? Are they just stupid scientists?What misconceptions do I have? And at what point if any where pointed out to me, that I didn't admit I was wrong. I am always willing to learn. I believe I pointed this out to you already. It is not about how SCIENTISTS use and devolope it. Go back and read the topic.As far as scientists go anyway, what drives them to prove the TOE? Isn't it to discover how life came about here on earth? If they don't believe in God, then I think its very clear as to what drives them to do this. Anyone who has ever speculated on what exactly started life here on earth always mentions TOE as part of it.

No, I just wouldn't compare theories side by side like you are doing.
There are and were many stupid theories in science. Like this one:
http://www.everytingjamaican.com/jamaicatalk/t421
Should I compare TOE to that one?
Should I compare the engine that is in Joe Amatos dragster that makes 3000 horesepower, to the one in your car? Yes, and the TOE.
Should I compare the 2 ?
Does one theory make the other one valid or invalid?
Should I use the fact that I think the atomic theory could be correct to believe that the TOE is correct. Because thats what your are suggesting, which is not a very good suggestion, and not very scientific of you.

How did you get that from what I said?
You see how complex your brain is?Do all dumb people believe in God? Thats what your saying.This is exactly the quality in dumb people that I am talking about. I don't think a dumb person would have ever got what you did from what I said.Why don't you just put all that brain power you got, and knowledge of nothing to the side for a second to see who you really are. Thats the person I want to know. Thats who God wants to know.

Great you said it, now please prove it. Yes I agree. Would the fact that I agree not make it completely wrong in 2000 years?
Its a theory, and isn't it fact that it just might be wrong? I think its our athiestic school system that turns evolution into a religion, not scientists. I think scientists would the TOE in a heartbeat to say there is no God, but they can't do that based on the evidence. But that doesn't stop them from trying to complete their mission.
Not all scientists, I must tell you again. No, I think what they are doing is good. Someone has to rebuttal TOE in some sort of fasion and let the public know that it is just a theory, and it doen't disprove God. Every program or video or debate I have seen on TOE verses creation, the creationalists always says that they do not have any problems with the TOE. They just feel like it should not be taught as law in our schools, and they should also include teaching about God in our schools. I feel the same way. So then, what would make it a religion for you, whats the criteria?

Its no joke. Check here:
http://www.nsf.gov/sbe/srs/seind04/c7/c7h.htmWhat I'm saying is seeing how most people don't get it, we have to be careful what we teach them. Most people would just take it as golden.
There is a large percentage of people who think the sun goes around the earth. Ask these people if there is a God, and I bet you some of them would say there can't be any God we evolved.Laugh at that one. But that is not true. Jesus taught us exactly how to recieve the Holy Spirit, and have eternal life. It is an experiment that anyone can do, but it requires all of your heart. Once you recieve the Holy Spirit, you may feel differently about what you just said.
Just because its a lot more difficult than spinning something around in a centerfuge, and looking at under a spectrograph, doesn't make it invalid. Irregardless of relilgious convictions would elemenate the experimant completely.If science claimed that something happened by the supernatural, it would just be a theory. One that couldn't be proven right now, but none the less a theory, sound familiar?

I never said you had to believe its true first.
You can accept something without actually beliving in it, that is where the faith comes in. Once you recieve the Holy Spirit, then its no longer accepting by faith, you'll know its there.I looked for God for 13 years, and accepted Christ for 5 before I ever recieved the Holy Spirit. I really wasn't expecting to happen what happened. Its when that happens that you'll understand.Then with the Holy Spirit, there are 9 gifts associated with him. You can recieve any one of the 9 or all of them. These are things that I couldn't do before. All in the name of Jesus.

Thats natural selection, I agree with that. But that doesn't mean an ant will become a human j/k Please prove that one. I don't know, I have seen so many different arrangements of the fossil record.
The correct arrangement would show things happening on a time line by date without the actual lines connecting species. That would be truth. Doesn't matter what I think. It would be incorrect to show that as proven. We have no proof as of yet to those lines between gaps. I don't have to account for anything, I am not claiming anything beyond the truth, you are the one who has to account for evidence between lines. And if that theory is not proven, then I won't believe in it. I will take it for what its worth. Most of what I have seen was in the science books that we learned in school with. With creationalists on the seen now, many scientists have made sure that the mistakes aren't printed anymore, because they know the riddicule they will get for posting a map of the fossil record like that these days. But here are some links showing what I'm talking about:
http://www.geology.ucdavis.edu/~gel107/w04_vermeij/
Life on Earth
Salticidae
http://www.life.uiuc.edu/...res/sp98lects/25s98evidence.html
http://cas.bellarmine.edu/...ty_of_the_fossil_record_thr.htm
Pharyngula - Hotell anbefalinger Barcelona
http://universe-review.ca/I10-02-TreeOfLife.jpgAll those pages show lines connecting the gaps.
I see no need for an apology.This page shows the difference between a darwin evolutionary time scale and the actual time scale.
Revolution Against Evolution – A Revolution of the Love of God Yes I am. Cars have a blueprint from which the factory makes them, as do our bodys, our blue print is in our RNA and DNA. Ok, I'm trying to keep up with you here, thanks for taking the time to explain things to me.But, wouldn't it be obvious why the two are so similiar since our genetic code determines how we are constructed?
To me it only proves that DNA complexity is in tune with morphological complexity. I would expect that if I was created or I evolved. Oh, I don't know, say any species during the cambrian period that we could have evolved from. No, its not science. But I do believe God should be taught in the schools, to at least give kids the knowledge of him, so that they can choose for themselves. To not teach it is like saying he doesn't exist period.Just look at the crime rate WITHIN the school system since 1962 when they took God out of the classroom. They didn't even bother to replace it with some sort of moral system to teach kids morals and quality of life. Kids today have no morals and will do anything they want, and the only persons they have to answer to is their parents, and we all know how a lot of parents are in this nation.
Either they are to busy trying to make a buck, because both parents have to work, or they just don't care, or they themselves don't have any morals. Also a 50% divorce rate isn't helping our children. Its no wonder people choose to be gay and not have kids, its the perfect solution to a f'd up world we live in.
(starts another controversy)
I hope you have kids and you know what I'm talking about.Try working with some kids, if you haven't already, you'll get a glimpse into who and what they are.
Then with 90% of the population being scientifically illterate, tell me our schools are doing a good job of teaching our kids.