If some parts of the Bible can't be trusted how can any of it?

The reason the Bible is the Word of God, is because it says what happens thousands of years before it happens.Please see the following link:Page not found

> Which Bible is the Word of God?The "textus receptus" a.k.a. the received majority Greek New Testament text, along with the translation of the Hebrew to Greek executed circa 250 BC called the Septuagint, are the Word of God.Since...Righteousness exalteth a nation...
Proverbs 14:34...and after publishing the 1611 King James Bible, England became a world power until the 1950's. So if the British people reading the King James Bible, were able to live righteously enough to be exalted by God as a superpower for more than 300 years, then I would take the King James Bible as sufficiently close to the actual inspired, inerrant texts, for God to bless their reading of it.So to answer your question of "which bible", the answer is, the Christian Bible. Since only the Christian Bible, New Testament and Old, say what happens thousands of years before they happen. Please see Page not found for this evidence.> How do you know? Do you have a Bible from way back then?Actually, in Page not found, the claim is made that we have copies of the Septuagint Old Testament from 250BC.For the New Testament, we know that it was quoted over 35,000 times by early Christians between the death of Jesus, and 325 AD. Obviously, you can't quote what does not exist. We have 24,000 copies, portions, and miniscules of the New Testament in many languages, from Christianity's rapid spread in the ancient world. Critically, the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, is a spectacular example of God's judgement of Israel, and strong evidence for the passing of the mantle of God's one way to heaven from Judaism to Christianity, is never mentioned one time in the New Testament, because the New Testament was written before 70 AD in it's entirety.For the Old Testament, we know that ancient historians like Josephus, who recorded the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, quoted from the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament. Philo quoted from the Old Testament also. Good question though not explicitly about historians quoting from the Old Testament more than 2000 years ago, does cover it with some thoroughness.For examples of the Old and New Testament saying what happens thousands of years before they happen, please see Page not found.Only the prophets of Judaism, and the apostles of Jesus Christ, have ever forecast the future with accuracy. This is the signature of God, that the Christian Bible is the way to know the mind of God.ROTB

>Actually, I looked over at That link and could not find any real
>evidence that there were any prophesies fullfilled.I apologize. Some of the ones at Page not found are easier to grasp if you already trust the Bible. But surely an exponential rise in the number of earthquakes discussed in the section "The Rise in Major 'Killer' Earthquakes" is an example of Jesus saying what hapened almost 2000 years before it happened?Page not found shows how Moses, Ezekiel, and Jeremiahs writings point to 1948AD as the year Israel would be reborn as a nation. Men cannot make predictions like this.Again, we have many historians citing the Old Testament from 2000+ years ago, and the Word of God came true about when Israel would be born. That's why we know the Bible is the Word of God, because it claims to tell the future ...I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did [them] suddenly, and they came to pass.
Isaiah 48:3... and it does, also pointing to 32AD as the year the Messiah would be killed. That's discussed in Page not found also.What GIFTS from a loving God, for us to know that the Bible is His word, and He transcends space and time, just like he says he does.ROTB

>And the Roman Empire was able to be exalted enough by Jupiter et al. to
>stay a superpower for 500 years or so. Then that scurrilous Constantine
>snuck in Christianity, and here came the Visigoths!Might seem silly, but the Bible is the history of God's people carrying the message of what God thinks of us, and if I were to say that the Romans were raised up by God to punish Israel who once were the carriers of this message for the crimes of faithlessness and killing the Messiah, I could then bolster this argument by saying ...1) 1948AD is pointed to in the Old Testament as the year God would re-form Israel as a nation
2) the time we call the 1st century is pointed to by the writings of Daniel and Moses and Haggai and Malachi and the Talmud
3) Romans 11 talks about a remnant of Israel still being under God's protectionSo if the Bible says what happens thousands of years before it happens Page not found, and God loves us and wants His message of how to get into heaven promoted, He will ...1) promote any country that follows him for as long as they do, such as England from 1611 until 1950 (England stopped holding up the Bible as an authority in the 1850's when the evolutionists were not boldly challenged) and the United States from 1776 until now, despite our having kicked the Bible out of public schools in the 1960s and the subsequent elevation of evolutionists to prominent positions, we still have time to turn it around
2) shove down any country that turns it's back on Him, like he did when Israel turned it's back on Him, and when they killed Jesus Christ.It took England 100 years to go from a world power, to being just an average nation, and all it took was abandoning the Bible as the authority of society.Page not found shows us that the Bible is the Word of God, because it says what happens thousands of years before it happens. And we can live forever in the presenece of God, if we believe, and follow.ROTB

>Prophesy, if it is to have any worth, must clearly inform about
>something in the future. If it does not predict, then it has no value.
>If it is so vague that many different things could be seen as
>fullfilling it, it is of no value.>So my challenge stands. Go through the Bible and point to prophesies
>that will come true in the second half of 2004 or in 2005.The premise of your challenge is faulty, since Isaac Newton predicted before his death in 1727 that the state of Israel would be re formed.ROTB

>I thought that was supposed to happen, though. How can that be a bad
>thing?Correct. It was written in the Old Testament that the Messiah would be killed. Please see http://www.messiahrevealed.org/rejected.html for a partial list.>It's the source of all our salvation or whatever, isn't it?Correct. Please see http://www.messiahrevealed.org/salvation.html for a partial list.But you also have to follow and obey.If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed
John 8:31
If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
John 8:51
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1 Corinthians 15:2If you're wondering how to obey, you need the Holy Spirit.[This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:16If you're wondering how to get the Holy Spirit, you ask for it.If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Luke 11:13>How can you fault Israel for doing what it took to guarantee
>salvation for all persons forever?Just because God can say what happens before it happens, does not absolve us of responsibility when we choose to do sin. In Acts 3 Peter accuses onlooking Jews of delivering Jesus up to be murdered, but he also says that it was foretold by the prophets.Christ even said it Himself:Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
John 19:11The Romans, namely Pontius Pilate, also had a chance to stop it, but he passed it up because it was the easy thing to do.But even though we are tempted by the devil and our flesh, and we are imperfect, God did the grandest thing ever...he paid the debt of our sins in full.All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:6All we have to do is admit we are imperfect, that we are flawed, that we have done much to ruin the world and not build it up, and apologize for our selfish, deliberate, mistakes to God, and ask Jesus to send His Holy Spirit, and then to follow Him by reading the Bible, and praying, and seeking to obey the Word of God.ROTB

>How is a prophesy that can only be understood after the fact of use?Isaac Newton, who lived in the late 1600s and early 1700s, read the bible daily. You may also be familiar with his work in Calculus and Physics. I remember reading that he posited that one day a nation of Israel would be re born, as in, their punishment as outlined in Page not found would come to an end, and the land we know as Israel, would be open for the Jewish people to return to.Newton did not delve into this area as much as he did into the book of Daniel. The mathematical calculation that allows us to see that God's word points to 1948 as the year Israel would be a Jewish state, and 1967 pointing to the recapture of Jerusalem, was discovered in 1988.People who believe in God, and know the Word of God, know when they hear God, so prophecy is of use to them before the fact. After the fact, when the prophecy comes true as said by God, is when unbelievers may consider if they have witnessed the Word of God or not, and then hopefully realize they are imperfect, selfish, sinners who have done much to ruin the world, and not build it up.Hopefully they will.ROTB

>Oh. That's "all it took," huh? Fascinating.We in the USA are in about the 40th year of the authority of the Word of God being trashed. If you think corruption, fighting, lying, greed, and whorishness are bad now, it will get much worse.School shootings did not happen until the 1990s. People were commonly virgins until marriage, but now 8000 people get sexually transmitted diseases each day in the USA. In the 1950s, American cars were the best in the world. Welfare, invented in the 1960s, has created a semi-permanent underclass. Illegal immigration was not an issue.>I claim that England was the instrument raised up by Shiva to
>chastise the Hindus, and after they'd been chastised them enough, He
>shucked England off like a used paper towel. I don't think you can
>support your view any better than I can mine.God judges more severely those who know who He is, and then turn their back on Him, than those who simply do evil without knowing Him. With this premise:1) I read in Grant Jeffrey's bookThe Signature of God that England started to cast off the authority of the Word of God in the 1850s in the face of the evolutionist onslaught. The pastors did not meet this head on, without compromise. History tells us that the Empire of England started collapsing around the 1890s, and was largely finished around the 1950s.2) The Bible says what happens thousands of years before it happens. As summarized in Page not found. Therefore, since man cannot do this, we know the Bible is the Word of God. So when the character of God is revealed in the Old Testament as a God that judges un-righteous nations by allowing their enemies to prosper, and as a God that raises righeous nations to the high places of the earth, we can determine with good certainty that a) England started on the path of not believing God in the 1850s b) They had become an average nation by the 1950s c) The Word of God has been proven true again.ROTB

>What good is a prophesy that can only be understood after the fact?I'll try again. Thank you for your patience!I don't think people read the Bible for thousands of years, while not understanding God's promises about the time God would allow the Jewish people to return to Israel. I suspect they never bothered to check the accuracy of the Word of God. Grant Jeffrey tried to check the accuracy of it in 1988, and was rewarded.So it was not that nobody understood it until 1988, nobody checked it. Isaac Newton knew that Israel would be a Jewish state again, just by reading the Bible, but did not bother checking it.Page not found lays it out very clearly.If you understand how I am missing the gist of your question, please help me.ROTB

>Whaaaaat? Newton prophesied what where? His writings are not part of
>the Bible.True. The word I used was "predicted" but even that is the wrong word. I apologize.Newton simply read what the Bible said, and opined:...since the commandment to return and to build Jerusalem, precedes the Messiah the Prince 49 years; it may perhaps come forth not from the Jews themselves, but [134] from some other kingdom friendly to them...
Page not found | Newton Project Canada>You were talking about bibical prophesy correct? Citing something
>about Newton has no relationship to Jar's premise. If you can show
>that it does then please do so explicitly. A bald statement that the
>premise is false and citing a non sequiter does nothing to help your
>case.Newton was not a biblical prophet. He simply read the Bible, and observed in the above quote that God would allow the Jews to regather into Israel. In case the aforementioned quote is too obscure, I quote the following commentary on Newton's writings:Newton says the 434-year part was fulfilled at the First Coming (as can be explained), and the 49-year part will apply to the Second Coming. And three centuries ago he saw and wrote about the rebirth of Israel at a time when such a thought was preposterous. By faith, he foresaw a "friendly kingdom" someday again issuing the "commandment to restore and build Jerusalem." Now, centuries later, that "friendly kingdom" may have been the United Nations, which decreed Israel's rebirth in November, 1947, causing Israel to be reborn in May, 1948.
http://www.ldolphin.org/angels299.htmlIt is not impossible to read the Bible and understand it when it comes to realizing human imperfection, sin, hurting those around you, and the punishment of damnation.But for intellectual skeptics, if they can spend the time and energy digging into the Bible and history, matters like the Bible telling what happens thousands of years before they happen, as outlined in Page not found, can become clear.ROTB

>What good is a prophesy that can only be understood after the fact?It helps people who don't believe God, believe and trust Him with their eternal destiny, since men can't tell the future with perfect accuracy, and when the Word of God does this, you know you can trust it.ROTB

>If it can only be understood after the fact, how does that help?I apologize again for not understanding your question, I think I understand it better now. Prophecy can always be understood before the fact. The points of prophecy that I can think of are:1) to warn people of danger, and give them a chance to avoid it
2) to say what happens with perfect reliability, so the faith of believers is strengthenedLets briefly review the contents of Page not found :1) Before the return from Babylonian captivity, Daniel was told by God that 483 years after the building of Jerusalem and it's walls an "annointed" or "Mashiach" would show up. It happened to the very day in 32 AD.2) In 606 BC, the nation of Israel was conquered, and after 70 years of captivity (Jeremiah 25), they still had 360 years of sin debt left (Ezekiel 4). Since they were dis-obedient to God, God punished them seven times more (Leviticus 26), which means upon their return from Babylon, they were still ruled over by outsiders, and then kicked out.606BC + 70 years (Jeremiah 25) + (360 years left x 7) = 1948 ADGod promised to scatter the Jews into the world if they did not repent, and then he did it. He also brought them back (1948AD) exactly when he said He would.Glory to God!!!ROTB

>I went to the idolphin site in your link. That site seemed to be saying
>Jesus was to return in 1996 or 98. Did he?Touche. Jesus did not. But:1) Newton is not God, he is only trying to interpret the Bible.
2) Jesus said that nobody knows the moment of this return except the Father, and He also said He will come at a time we do not expect.ROTBThis message has been edited by ROTB, 08-22-2004 11:00 PM

>Actually, it hasn't reformed. .. not like the bible said it should.>Israel is a secular state. It is not a monarchy , that has the temple
>as it center, and the Torah as it's basis.With regard to the time, Page not found only speaks of when God would allow Israel back with self-rule. It is not Messianic."reformed" was bad diction on my part. "when God would allow them to return and self-govern" would have been more accurate. I apologize.ROTB

>Those were other messiah prophecies not fullfilled. Such as, world
>peace, the Messiah also must be married and have children, and have
>years added onto his life.Peace is not given to a world that rejects the messiah. Both the Jews and the Romans passed up chances to save Jesus.Under the section "Later Life" at http://www.fact-index.com/...menachem_mendel_schneerson.html we see that Jewish people who read and write fluent Hebrew had no qualms with the notion that the Messiah should come, do some things, die, and come back.Sorry I don't have a source link for the following, but I pulled the following list from a Lubavichter (Orthodox Jews who think the Messiah died in 1993) web site a while back; 13 citations which allude or refer the death and return of the Messiah:

1) Sanhedrin 98b (see Rashi on this)
2) S'dei Chemed vo;.7, page 2984
3) Derech Eretz Zuta (end of chapter 11)
4) Yeshuos Meshicho (page 104)
5) Midrash Eichah Rabbah (1:51)
6) Yefeh Anaf (commentary on Midrash Eichah Rabbah, ibid)
7) Arba Mei'os Shekel Kesef (p.68 by Rabbi Chaim Vital , pupil of the Arizal)
8) Meori Tzion (chapter 97)
9) Zohar (Balak, 203b)
10) Maamarim of the Alter Rebbe (5568 page 283)
11) Second to last Rashi on Daniel 12:12
12) The Ben Ish Chai in his commentary on Sanhedren 98 in his book "Ben Yhoyada"
13) The Lubavitcher Rebbe's numerous references to the previous Lubavitcher Rebbe specifically "V'hu Yigaleinu" stated after the passing of the previous Rebbe found in Basi L'gani.
I am not certain if the quote below is from a Jew or Christian:When the death of the Messiah became an established tenet in Talmudic times, this was felt to be irreconcilable with the belief in the Messiah or redeemer who would usher in the blissful millennium of the Messianic age. The dilemma was solved by splitting the person of the Messiah in two: Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David
Raphael Patai, noted anthropologist, author and former professor of Hebrew at Hebrew University
http://www.heartofisrael.org/chazak/articles/saywhat.htm>So far, no person has met the following requirements to be the
>MessiahThe arguments you present my fellow Jewish brother, are academic until the evidence at Page not found is refuted. If:1) The Old Testament says nothing about the Messiah coming only once.
2) The Old Testament says nothing about the Messiah not coming twice.
3) Genesis 49:10 points to the period of time we call the early 1st century as the time Messiah would come (please see Page not found ).
4) The blood sacrifices usually accepted by God were refused during the last 40 years (from 30 AD forward, from when Jesus was accused of channeling the power of the Devil see Matthew 9:34).Our rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the lot [‘For the Lord’] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-coloured strap become white; nor did the western most light shine; and the doors of the Hekel would open by themselves, until Yohanan ben Zakkai rebuked them, saying: Hekel, Hekel, why wilt thou be the alarmer thyself? I know about thee that thou wilt be destroyed, for Zechariah ben Ido has already prophesied concerning thee: Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour thy cedars.
Babylonian Talmud, Yoma 39b, Soncino Version
http://www.bksilverthorne.com/Articles/Messiahtime.htm5) God promised "Peace" would be given at the second temple in Haggai 2:10.The aforementioned evidence that the Messiah came during what we call the 1st century AD is persuasive enough to me, that I conclude that the notion that he should have done absolutely everything in one visit, is to be discarded.ROTBP.S. I called the Tanakh the "Old Testament," not to insult your faith, but only for the sake of those reading this thread that were not born Jewish.This message has been edited by ROTB, 08-22-2004 11:43 PM